Second Thoughts

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Well, not really second thoughts because that suggests a mistaken opinion previously.
But I am slowly approaching the point that I may be able to reconsider my opinion about the GD forum.
Previously I have slated it for being protective and supportive of bigoted opinions.
Now don't get me wrong, I still think there are fanatical bigoted posters commenting on issues they have little understanding. I still think that transam has been allowed and protected to spout his extreme racist views. I still think that transam, and others, probably do discuss issues in secret despite their denial. And the supersonic speed with which any mention is deleted, would suggest that is so. I still think that some posters rely on and resort to abusive and devious debating tactics. I still think that some issues become tribal, but that is slowly changing. It still annoys me that some find it unacceptable to admit to error.

But thank you to the mods for allowing discussions about important and sensitive issues to continue, even if those comments have been robustly vigorous at times. It is important that a range of views can be aired, within the confines of legality and rationality, to allow out-of-date notions to be dispelled. I have said that I like to consider the majority of society to be intelligent, rational adults who can read, digest, comprehend and thus form their own views.
I, for one, enjoy the discussions because it motivates me to research more about the issues under discussion, and that contributes to my own understanding of the issues.

This can only happen if people are allowed the freedom to debate, within the confines of what is legal, rational and not abusive.

 

[JohnD]

not abusive.

that will make a nice change.

When do you plan to start?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

that will make a nice change.

When do you plan to start?

When you stop your devious, dishonest, strawman and petitio principii arguments.

 

[Notch7]

When you stop your devious, dishonest, strawman and petitio principii arguments.

Did you know that to build consensus you have to find common ground.

How's that workin for ya on the issue of racism

 

[fillyboy]

But thank you to the mods for allowing discussions about important and sensitive issues to continue, even if those comments have been robustly vigorous at times.

Maybe they enjoy seeing you on the losing side of an argument, we do.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Did you know that to build consensus you have to find common ground.
How's that workin for ya on the issue of racism

That's a weird comment Notch7. Who mentioned consensus, common ground or racism?
It appears to be a totally unrelated comment.

I have said that I like to consider the majority of society to be intelligent, rational adults who can read, digest, comprehend and thus form their own views.
I, for one, enjoy the discussions because it motivates me to research more about the issues under discussion, and that contributes to my own understanding of the issues.

I was commenting on how people are allowed to read, digest, comprehend and form their own opinions when robust discussion is allowed.
If people choose to read the arguments, they are capable of differentiating the rational, unemotive, intelligent arguments form the purely emotive, devious, dishonest arguments. It's up to them how they choose to adopt the views presented.
They can comprehend, check and assess the rational, intelligent, honest arguments if they wish. Or they can choose the dishonest, devious, irrational, bigoted arguments, or they can choose go fully tribal and agree with their favoured poster and completely ignore the arguments presented.
It's up to them.
Of course there will always be some who will intentionally throw in serious abuse in order to get the mods to lock the thread because they've run out of sensible argument, or there is a complete lack of evidence to support their view, or because they realise their position is untenable, or because that's the last resort of a fragile argument. But that's covered in my 'devious debating techniques'.
But robust discussion, absent of illegal, immoral and abusive comments, does permit the various arguments to be presented and intelligent people can assess the arguments for themselves.
For sure, there will always be confirmation bias, etc, and people will tend to agree with the opinions that most closely associate with their own views. That's human nature. And if they refuse to read the arguments, close their eyes, and put their fingers in their ears, that's bigotry in reality.

And of course there will always be those who throw in totally unrelated comments. Maybe they have an unresolved issue that is burning a hole in their image.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Maybe they enjoy seeing you on the losing side of an argument, we do.

Intelligent people can discern the rational, moral, legal, medical and scientific argument. They can perceive the irrational, emotive, unscientific immoral, bigoted argument.
They don't need an unqualified person to point out to them the 'winning' argument. In doing so, you are indicating two things
1. your own assumption of others low intellect, and their inability to assess the arguments,
2. the fragility of the emotive, irrational, unscientific, bigoted argument based on absolutely no evidence or eminent opinion.

 

[Mottie]

That's a weird comment Notch7. Who mentioned consensus, common ground or racism?
It appears to be a totally unrelated comment.


I was commenting on how people are allowed to read, digest, comprehend and form their own opinions when robust discussion is allowed.
If people choose to read the arguments, they are capable of differentiating the rational, unemotive, intelligent arguments form the purely emotive, devious, dishonest arguments. It's up to them how they choose to adopt the views presented.
They can comprehend, check and assess the rational, intelligent, honest arguments if they wish. Or they can choose the dishonest, devious, irrational, bigoted arguments, or they can choose go fully tribal and agree with their favoured poster and completely ignore the arguments presented.
It's up to them.
Of course there will always be some who will intentionally throw in serious abuse in order to get the mods to lock the thread because they've run out of sensible argument, or there is a complete lack of evidence to support their view, or because they realise their position is untenable, or because that's the last resort of a fragile argument. But that's covered in my 'devious debating techniques'.
But robust discussion, absent of illegal, immoral and abusive comments, does permit the various arguments to be presented and intelligent people can assess the arguments for themselves.
For sure, there will always be confirmation bias, etc, and people will tend to agree with the opinions that most closely associate with their own views. That's human nature. And if they refuse to read the arguments, close their eyes, and put their fingers in their ears, that's bigotry in reality.

And of course there will always be those who throw in totally unrelated comments. Maybe they have an unresolved issue that is burning a hole in their image.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it doesn’t always have to agree with yours. This is primarily a DIY/Trade site although a few on here seem to not be on here for that reason. If people’s attitude on here dodn’t tally with what you expect, no, demand, why don’t you join one of the many debating forums but please note, they are called debating forums for a reason - they have different points of view and different attitudes and senses of humour to you.

I think ultimately you are looking for an agreement forum and specifically a Dazzler agreement forum and the only way you are going to get that us to start one yourself where you have complete control over content, attitude and thoughts. Good luck.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it doesn’t always have to agree with yours.
I think ultimately you are looking for an agreement forum and specifically a Dazzler agreement forum and the only way you are going to get that us to start one yourself where you have complete control over content, attitude and thoughts. Good luck

Then it wouldn't be a general discussion forum.

This is primarily a DIY/Trade site although a few on here seem to not be on here for that reason.

The description of the forum:

General Discussion
Tired after all that DIY? Discuss or debate topical issues here.​

If people’s attitude on here dodn’t tally with what you expect, no, demand, why don’t you join one of the many debating forums but please note, they are called debating forums for a reason - they have different points of view and different attitudes and senses of humour to you.

You will notice that I rarely start a thread.
But when I see an obvious bigoted, irrational, immoral, potentially illegal or fundamentally incorrect comment, I have the duty to confront, object or offer an alternative view.
This is a debating forum, just like many others. And while some are presenting their bigoted, immoral, potentially illegal, or fundamentally incorrect comments, I'll go on contributing.
If you don't like it, hard luck. I don't like many of your comments, but rather than wish, hope, or campaign for you to not contribute, I'm content to debate with you and to offer my opinion.
If there weren't a variety of opinions, it couldn't really be called a discussion forum, now could it?
And the title of the forum would be a mockery of comprehension.

 

[Diver Fred]

All I say is I signed up to this Forum to expand my knowledge of DIY in its many forms.

Since you (as BD/SP) joined the Forum the discussions has become far more political. Unnecessary!

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

All I say is I signed up to this Forum to expand my knowledge of DIY in its many forms.

Since you (as BD/SP) joined the Forum the discussions has become far more political. Unnecessary!

I very rarely start those discussions to which you refer.

Maybe those arguments were always there, but no-one gave an alternative view to the dominant view that existed.
Maybe if anyone did they were banned or hounded from the forum.

Incidentally, it was for DIY that I also signed up. I only discovered the GD forum after signing up, and became aware of the political, bigoted, and sometimes immoral nature of the comments

 

[Mottie]

Incidentally, it was for DIY that I also signed up.

I only discovered the GD forum after signing up

And discover it you did! Did you know that only 2.59% of your total posts on this DIY site are DIY related? Now, if someone joined a political discussion forum and 97.41% of their posts were in the DIY section and the majority of those posts were arguing with others, would you think they were in the wrong forum or possibly on there for the wrong reasons?

A few of the more voiciferous remoaners on here, no names mentioned but you can probably guess who, elect to have the statistics of their posts hidden. All very secret squirrel. I wonder why?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

And discover it you did! Did you know that only 2.59% of your total posts on this DIY site are DIY related? Now, if someone joined a political discussion forum and 97.41% of their posts were in the DIY section and the majority of those posts were arguing with others, would you think they were in the wrong forum or possibly on there for the wrong reasons?

Some on here, no names mentioned but you can probably guess who, elect to have the statistics of their posts hidden. I wonder why?

I'm flattered that you felt the need to analyse my posts. I see no reason why anyone would hide heir statistics, and as far as I am aware, I'm not one of them, so your allegation is untrue. But that's yet another of your little foibles, making untrue allegations.
Did you know that the majority of your posts in this forum are bigoted, or designed to ridicule, or negative, or nit-picking, or abusive.
But I'm not about to analyse your comments in any detail because the forum is for general discussion. There is no norm about percentage of posts being on any particular subject, which you were in a rush to lecture me about.

... This is primarily a DIY/Trade site although a few on here seem to not be on here for that reason.

I suggest you skip your hypocrisy and keep to the topic.

 

[Mottie]

I see no reason why anyone would hide heir statistics, and as far as I am aware, I'm not one of them, so your allegation is untrue. But that's yet another of your little foibles, making untrue allegations.

Eh? How could I allege your statistics are hidden yet quote them to you? Are you a member of any anti-racist or political forums? If so, do you have any arch enemies on those forums too?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Eh? How could I allege your statistics are hidden yet quote them to you? Are you a member of any anti-racist or political forums? If so, do you have any arch enemies on those forums too?

Tut, tut, more devious and dishonest debating techniques.
Your original post, which I responded to:

Your edited post, which you are trying to hide what you originally implied:

So hypocrisy is not your only foible.