Spanish Girl attacked

[Deleted member 63160]

When I was younger I slept with two Polls once Camping.

Those guys are goers

 

[Bodd]

Those guys are goers

Tent Polls. They got stuck in!

 

[Bodd]

Edit

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I will point out that Polish people are not of a different race than the nutter, but -

I have just seen that the two who attacked the Spanish girl were black so that could be racist but not if it was just because she was speaking Spanish.

I know this is difficult for some to understand but I think it is important.

I think Elfi is consistently approaching his definition of racism from the wrong angle.
Correct me if I am wrong, as I understand it, you are suggesting that it cannot be racist to behave towards another of a different nationality/culture/religion etc, because the victim is not of a different "race".

The actual difference is irrelevant. It is the perceived difference that motivates racist behaviour.

For instance, if a perpetrator commits a homophobic action against a person who they think is gay, i.e. a perceived gay person, it is immaterial whether the victim is actually gay or not. The action was motivated by a homphobic attitude.
If, say an English person, behaves xenophobically towards a victim, who it turns out is also English, because they perceive that victim to be an immigrant, it is irrelevant, and no defence, to claim that the victim is actually not an immigrant. The behaviour was xenophobically motivated.

So whether victims of racially motivated actions are actually a different race or not is irrelevant. What is overridingly important, is that the perpetrator perceives a difference in race, nationality, culture or even religion that motivates their behaviour.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I ask that because some people appear to think that black people can't be 'racist' because it doesn't fit into their (often warped) 'politically correct' vision of the world

That is the perceived apparent wisdom.

I think you are extrapolating one perceived wisdom onto another "urban myth" and claiming that they are both perceived wisdom.
It is true to say that there is a perceived wisdom that black people ( or any minority) cannot create through discrimination in their behaviour towards the majority in a society, a less equal society for the majority. Because the minority will always be less equal than the majority, through discrimination from that majority.
Obviously, if a representative of that minority group is in a position of power and 'decree' policies that discriminate against the majority, that perceived wisdom does not hold true.

But to extrapolate that perceived wisdom onto a different pattern of behaviour i.e. racist, is disingenuous.
Any person or group in society can be equally prejudicial in their attitude towards other minorities, or even towards the majority in that society.

 

[sodthisforfun]

lucky you don't live in Harlow.

Polish man murdered.
Surely you remember?

You do know that it was the Polish man and his friend who were overheard making the racist remarks to the youths don't you? The Polish man and his friend were the ones who started the trouble and what was originally dealt as a hate crime in the end wasn't and the kid was found guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Or do you not want to know the facts and rather use Harlow has an example of brexit racism propaganda?

 

[Notch7]

You do know that it was the Polish man and his friend who were overheard making the racist remarks to the youths don't you?

Sshhh! You mustnt say that, it would debunk the whole point of JohnD's purpose of mentioning Harlow and would make him seem stupid. Now we wouldnt want that, would we?

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

You do know that it was the Polish man and his friend who were overheard making the racist remarks to the youths don't you? The Polish man and his friend were the ones who started the trouble and what was originally dealt as a hate crime in the end wasn't and the kid was found guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Or do you not want to know the facts and rather use Harlow has an example of brexit racism propaganda?

You seem to be embellishing the "mitigating statement" put forward for the defendant, by his brief.
There were no independent witnesses, that I can determine, that supports your comment that the Polish men were the ones making racist remarks..
We have no idea what motivated the victim to approach the defendant. So your assumption that the Polish men started the trouble is speculation.
In fact the defendant and his friends were very much agent provocateurs following the initial confrontation.

Arkadiusz Jozwik died on August 27 last year.
An hour or so later, they bought pizza before sitting on a bench near to a group of teenagers who has been in the area throughout the day.
At about 11.25pm, Mr Jozwik, and Radek Koscelski, walked over to a boy who was sitting on a bench.
An exchange of words then took place between Mr Koscelski and the boy and a confrontation took place.
Five minutes later, the defendant and three other boys arrived back in the shopping parade on bicycles.
Two of the boys, neither of whom were the defendant, rode closely to Mr Jozwik and Mr Koscelski, which appeared to spark a disagreement.
The boys joined the other teenagers and the men walked over to the group where there was a heated verbal dispute involving gesticulating and a push between the groups.

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/harlow-manslaughter-trial-cps-explain-441116

Additionally, it was not the motivation that caused the downgrading of the incident to a charge of manslaughter, it was the fact that it was considered that the defendant had not intended to kill the victim.

 

[Notch7]

The actual difference is irrelevant. It is the perceived difference that motivates racist behaviour

Racism refers to race only.

The correct term is ethnic discrimination.

The media have generalised the term racism.

Ironically the media have done the opposite with anti semitism......they have meant it refer to Jews only

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The media have generalised the term racism.

And the legal profession, international organisations, national organisations, etc.
Colloquially, we all know what racism refers to. It is only pedants who insist it can only apply to actual differences.
The actual situation, i.e. whether there is real difference is irrelevant. It is the perceived difference by the perpetrator that is the motivator for racist behaviour.

Similarly, anti-semitism, is behaviour towards someone who is perceived to be Jewish. Whether they are actually Jewish is immaterial.

 

[Notch7]

Colloquially, we all know what racism refers to. It is only pedants who insist it can only apply to actual differences

I see. So in fact ELFI is correct, racism refers to race alone.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I see. So in fact ELFI is correct, racism refers to race alone.

No he is not correct because he is basing his argument on actual differences. Racist actions are motivated by perceived differences.

 

[sodthisforfun]

You seem to be embellishing the "mitigating statement" put forward for the defendant, by his brief.
There were no independent witnesses, that I can determine, that supports your comment that the Polish men were the ones making racist remarks..
We have no idea what motivated the victim to approach the defendant. So your assumption that the Polish men started the trouble is speculation.
In fact the defendant and his friends were very much agent provocateurs following the initial confrontation.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/harlow-manslaughter-trial-cps-explain-441116

Additionally, it was not the motivation that caused the downgrading of the incident to a charge of manslaughter, it was the fact that it was considered that the defendant had not intended to kill the victim.

As the hate crime was dropped, I can think it's safe to say that the courts/police thought there was no motivation of hate crime, or at the very least there is little or no evidence. So what is good enough for the police/court has to be good enough for the likes of us mere mortals and the fact Johnd is still using incorrect facts to promote brexit hate/racist crimes does indeed make him look stupid. Am sure there are many a chart somewhere showing the increase of hate crime post brexit he could show instead to prove his point but of course, they don't make great sensationalism of it all unlike a kid killing a Polish man.

I wrote about the manslaughter because it is what the kid was found guilty of. NOT murder, as Johnd again incorrectly stated.
A man died and a stupid kid was punished and lives ruined. I do not think it is acceptable to use this whole sorry affair as political propaganda.

 

[ellal]

Crap.

Moved on from 'Boloxs', eh.

Your replies contain no argument, thus may I suggest your next word.
It's not too difficult to think of, because you are full of it

 

[ellal]

Racism refers to race only.

The correct term is ethnic discrimination.

So are Polish people defined as a race or an ethnicity?

If the latter, then it is based on colour.

And thus who exactly were brexshiteers voting to exclude?
Mainly black on the poster, but mainly white in reality!
But plenty of moaning about the Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians etc as seperate 'entities' as compared to French / German etc...

Prejudice it appears is in the 'eye of the beholder'