Private Message replies to threads.

[JohnW2]

With Part P it states it should comply with BS 7671 or similar ....

Part P says absolutely nothing about BS7671, and nor does it refer to any other regulations, Standards or laws.

...and the recent 'PRS' legislation (for England only), which is what you were talking about, is totally separate from, and has nothing to do with, Part P of the Building Regs.

.... so one could if you wished build a home to German standards, and it would still comply with Part P ...

I'm not sure why people keep saying things like that. Whilst it is true, it is equally theoretically possible to have an installation which "complies with Part P" which does NOT comply with ANY national Standards/regs, be they UK, German or anything else.

However we are talking about shaver sockets, 553.1.2 says "every plug and socket-outlet shall be of the non-reversible type" but the is an exception for clocks and shavers, (553.1.5) my old 2008 edition does NOT include tooth brushes. .... But sockets for tooth brushes were not permitted by BS 7671:2008 as to if BS 7671:2018 has added tooth brush to the clock and shaver I don't know?

Nothing has changed in BS7671:2018.

However, do dedicated "tooth brush charger sockets" actually exist? Many 'shaver sockets' now have an indication that they can be used for charging toothbrushes, but that doesn't alter the fact that they are 'shaver sockets' (presumably compliant with the relevant Standards) - and therefore presumably still covered by 533.1.5?. After all, the regulation is essentially about sockets, since it has no control over what people might plug into them.

It seems rather sad that people expend time and effort worrying about trivial (and essentially 'bureaucratic') issues such as this, given that the safety issues are identical whether what is plugged into the socket is shaver, a toothbrush or anything else!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

It seems rather sad that people expend time and effort worrying about trivial (and essentially 'bureaucratic') issues such as this, given that the safety issues are identical whether what is plugged into the socket is shaver, a toothbrush or anything else!

I would agree, years ago the regulations said common sense should prevail, that seems to have been removed once they became a British standard.

However any fixed socket without polarity it would seem needs an over load protection of 3 amp or less, something I had missed until today, and in real terms there is not much that needs an earth today which is under 3 amp, so as long as fused to 3 amp it is unlikely anything untoward is run from the outlet.

 

[JohnW2]

I would agree, years ago the regulations said common sense should prevail, that seems to have been removed once they became a British standard.

I would hope that, at least as far as most of us are concerned, common sense still prevails.

I really don't think that many people (other than, perhaps, yourself) will be at all concerned that BS767 has not yet thought to update its references to 'shaver sockets' to include those which are, or may be, used for charging toothbrushes, since it is quite obvious that the safety issues are identical, regardless of what is plugged into the socket.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would agree, however it does explain why we don't have transformers with four secondary windings so you can have a gaggle of women all in the bathroom together cleaning their teeth with hard wired tooth brushes, there is normally only one male in a house hold with a beard growth, and even if two, unlikely they will want to both shave at the same time in the bathroom.

Clearly with rechargeable stuff it can be charged else where.

 

[EFLImpudence]

However any fixed socket without polarity it would seem needs an over load protection of 3 amp or less, something I had missed until today,

No.

If an appropriate OPD is on the circuit Line conductor then it does not matter which way the plug goes in.
Whether the flex Brown or Blue conductor is connected to that Line conductor is unimportant.

It is only because UK plugs have the OPD on one of the pins that polarity is relevant.

and in real terms there is not much that needs an earth today which is under 3 amp, so as long as fused to 3 amp it is unlikely anything untoward is run from the outlet.

There can be no appliance that actually requires a 3A fuse as it will be connected to 10A or 16A circuits in Europe and the rest of the non-British parts of the world.

 

[ericmark]

The Europlug is a flat, two-pole, round-pin domestic AC power plug, rated for voltages up to 250 V and currents up to 2.5 A.

So it seems rest of Europe also has a 3 amp limit!

 

[EFLImpudence]

So, they will only be fitted to appliances that draw less than 2.5A.

 

[SUNRAY]

but a socket like this View attachment 216203 would allow the reversing of two pin plugs so allowed by Part P but not with BS 7671, personally I see no problem with the socket. We used them all the time in Hong Kong.

The sad part about electric accessories is that they don't seem to be problematic. However it doesn't take many 'silly incidents' for changes to become mandatory.

There are still millions of sockets in use in UK which are not shuttered and there doesn't appear to be any concerns about those, I don't quite understand why some are included and some are not.

Working within public entertainment I have a signicicant stock of foreign power cables and the vast majority of those sockets are not shuttered, guess how many problems we have...

 

[JohnW2]

The sad part about electric accessories is that they don't seem to be problematic. However it doesn't take many 'silly incidents' for changes to become mandatory. ... There are still millions of sockets in use in UK which are not shuttered and there doesn't appear to be any concerns about those, I don't quite understand why some are included and some are not.

I think that it really comes down to a discussion that we've often had - as to what extent 'we' want (or should want) a 'Nanny State' which attempts to protect everyone from extremely small risks, whether they are due to 'flukes', silliness or whatever.

One can always argue that 'one tragedy is one too many', and thereby attempt to justify 'preventive measures' (which may sometimes be extremely costly). However, like it or not, we have to draw line somewhere - otherwise we presumably would have no electricity at all (or, at least, no electricity >ELV), and certainly no cars.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I think that it really comes down to a discussion that we've often had - as to what extent 'we' want (or should want) a 'Nanny State' which attempts to protect everyone from extremely small risks, whether they are due to 'flukes', silliness or whatever.

One can always argue that 'one tragedy is one too many', and thereby attempt to justify 'preventive measures' (which may sometimes be extremely costly). However, like it or not, we have to draw line somewhere - otherwise we presumably would have no electricity at all (or, at least, no electricity >ELV), and certainly no cars.

Kind Regards, John

I completely agree, it wasn't that many years ago I worked on some switchgear formed with chunks of brass mounted on a black shiny board. there were several of those mounted on wrought iron T section verticals with much of the wiring done with copper rods. this was about 18" from the wall and about another 18" was a 'wall' made out of more wrought iron and welded mesh with about 1.5" holes.

Oh yes I am grateful things have changed over the years.

The rest of the room was full of assorted bits and pieces including offcuts of copper pipe, conduit, studding etc and no body else thought it may be risky.

When I returned there maybe 5 years later it had all been replaced with a lovely compartmental busbar chamber and matching fused switches.

 

[xm77]

Part P says absolutely nothing about BS7671, and nor does it refer to any other regulations, Standards or laws.

Eh?
Part P Building Regs section 1 Design and installation says in several places in respect of both new buildings (sect 1.2) and work in existing installations (sect 1.7) that it should be done in accordance with BS 7671
Part P download page
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-approved-document-p

 

[EFLImpudence]

You are confusing Part P of The Building Regulations - The Law - with Approved Document P - a guide book someone has written and not law.

This is Part P - The Law:

That's all there is.


From AD P page i:

 

[JohnW2]

You are confusing Part P of The Building Regulations - The Law - with Approved Document P - a guide book someone has written and not law.

Quite so - a mistake which so many people (particularly eric, repetedly) seem to make.

As I wrote, it is at lest theoretically possible to comply with Part P ('the law') without complying with any national/international regulations or Standards, whether BS7671 or anything else.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Taylortwocities]

Agreed. Unfortunately, in a domestic environment, one is often confronted by one of the lovely LABC folk. Their view is often that the house you have just wired (perhaps to Bulgarian standards) is not compliant with their “Approved Document” bible.

 

[xm77]

Interesting - thank you for the corrections to my understanding.