A moral question...

[fillyboy]

any way i always look away when a needle gets shoved into me

Or a coke bottle.

 

[JohnD]

Here's a moral question for you.

How many of these were antivaxxer deaths?

"In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated."

Was it 50,641?

or less?

50,000? 20,000? 10,000?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...nd/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand2july2021

 

[JohnD]

Herman Cain was an antivaxxer death.

He has many followers.

These avoidable deaths are very sad

But the antivaxxers who encourage them should be shamed.

 

[denso13]

I accept this but I contend that some of them must be due to the vaccine

You don't know that. The Yellow Card Scheme cannot be relied on for death figures.

I said before that you or I could go on to the site right now and report a fictitious death. The death numbers would then go up by one. How scientific do you really think that is?

Or, if you like we could go with your figure for arguments sake. How does it compare with Covid deaths?

 

[Justin Passing]

 

[denso13]

Deaths from the vaccine as recorded on death certificates by doctors. I know some people think that doctors lie but...

https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/10/04/how-many-people-have-died-as-a-result-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

"In contrast, the different statistical agencies have reported that to August 2021 (June 2021 in Northern Ireland) there were 4 deaths in England, 0 deaths in Wales, 4 deaths in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland. Of these, 4 in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland had the vaccine as the underlying cause of death. This meant that there were 9 deaths in the UK that involved the vaccine (meaning the vaccine contributed to the death), of which 5 had the vaccine as the underlying cause (meaning the vaccine initiated the chain of events directly leading to the death). For these deaths, there was evidence to suggest that the vaccine played a part in the chain of events that led to the death."

 

[denso13]

Here's one from the AZ yellow card scheme, someone died of deafness, as reported by...who knows?

 

[Deleted member 18243]

Deaths from the vaccine as recorded on death certificates by doctors. I know some people think that doctors lie but...

https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/10/04/how-many-people-have-died-as-a-result-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/

"In contrast, the different statistical agencies have reported that to August 2021 (June 2021 in Northern Ireland) there were 4 deaths in England, 0 deaths in Wales, 4 deaths in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland. Of these, 4 in Scotland and 1 in Northern Ireland had the vaccine as the underlying cause of death. This meant that there were 9 deaths in the UK that involved the vaccine (meaning the vaccine contributed to the death), of which 5 had the vaccine as the underlying cause (meaning the vaccine initiated the chain of events directly leading to the death). For these deaths, there was evidence to suggest that the vaccine played a part in the chain of events that led to the death."

Thanks for your sensible replies Denso. There's no need to keep telling / asking me how many lives the vaccines have saved - I've covered that and we'll have to agree to disagree. Nine deaths is consistent with what Noseall says, but, in the Michelle Barlow case there is mention of 73 deaths from clotting. This is more than 9 - so where does this figure come from?

You don't know that. The Yellow Card Scheme cannot be relied on for death figures.
I said before that you or I could go on to the site right now and report a fictitious death. The death numbers would then go up by one. How scientific do you really think that is?

So, might the the 9 deaths (or might they not) be extra to the (possibly or possibly not) fictitious deaths on the Yellow Card scheme? How would we know? Is the Yellow Card Scheme anonymous? Making fake reports of deaths sounds quite serious - is anyone investigating it and trying to root out these possible fakes?

 

[denso13]

How would we know?

It depends on how far you think the conspiracy goes. You either tend to believe what doctors put on death certificates (some on here have said doctors put what they are told to put) or you believe something for which there is very little or no evidence.

I tend to follow the scientific evidence (not Boris or the MSM by the way) some don't. I don't know why. You do have "covid is a hoax" in your sig.

 

[JohnD]

The number of antivaxxer deaths is much higher.

 

[JohnD]

mention of 73 deaths from clotting. This is more than 9 - so where does this figure come from?

If you want to keep quoting the figure, it's up to you to substantiate it.





Antivaxxing is a hoax that causes deaths to its believers

 

[IT Minion]

Here's one from the AZ yellow card scheme, someone died of deafness, as reported by...who knows?

View attachment 252603

39 people reporting excessive ear wax.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

If you want to keep quoting the figure, it's up to you to substantiate it.

I already posted a link but it got deleted because I, allegedly, "misquoted" it. Here's a different link:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UZ4oW1lYPPUf9sZm_YRrx

Some questions:

Are the 9 deaths admitted by Denso and Noseall part of this 73 or additional to it?

If the Yellow Card scheme is unreliable, were those 9 deaths not reported by the Yellow Card scheme?

 

[JohnD]

73

the document says

"4. How many people have developed the condition? This condition is known to occur naturally and is thought to be extremely rare. The background rate of cerebral venous sinus thromboses (CVSTs) is estimated to be around 5 to 16 per million annually, although there is currently limited data on the background rate of CVSTs occurring with thrombocytopenia. Based on reports to 11 August 2021, the overall incidence following the AZ vaccine is around 14.9 per million frst or unknown doses and 1.8 per million second doses administered. For the latest information please see the weekly summary from the MHRA. It is also important to note that thromboses (blood clots) have been reported with natural COVID-19 infection and more than a ffth of hospitalised patients with COVID-19 have evidence of blood clots. A study based on analysis of US data showed that CVST was a complication of COVID-19 infection, with a higher incidence (42.8 per million) compared to a matched cohort of patients with infuenza (RR=2.67, 95% CI 1.04– 6.81, P=0.031) and people who had received an mRNA vaccine (RR=6.33, 95% CI 1.87–21.40, P=0.00014"

can we assume from this that they were all caused by antivaxxers? or does it not say what the cause was?

If you want to avoid blood clots, what is the thing they mention that you should most avoid?

Do you consider 42.8 per million to be a lot?

 

[JohnD]

If the Yellow Card scheme is unreliable

There is no "if"

The yellow card scheme is unreliable, as you know.

Therefore you should not rely on it

Only a fool would attempt to base his beliefs on the yellow card scheme.

Or an antivaxxer.

If different.