The unvaccinated.

[charliegolf]

Anger and frustration are normal in humans, especially in fraught times. But withdrawing treatment from anyone is barbaric; and barbarism should be consigned to history; or in the interim, those other places around the world* where they think it normal.

I would however, support removing the alternative methods of accessing hospitality, leaving the covid pass the only way. I'd extend that to food shopping between 6-8 am and 9-10pm, outdoor click and collect and home delivery. Everyone, that's EVERYONE must take responsibility for their choices, and accept the consequences.

*Not for this thread.

 

[cwhaley]

Were it not for these unthinking, selfish people, the stats suggest there would be 90% less covid sufferers occupying hospital beds, doctor and nurse time, plus all of the other things needed to support a patient in hospital. Stop treating them and they would soon come round to a sensible way of thinking.

That's quite shocking to read -- do you really mean that? Bear in mind there are a great deal of healthcare staff who do not want to have the vaccine for a multitude of reasons; some of them entirely reasonable and justified.

No modern and humane society would decline healthcare treatment to people who have made a conscious decision not to accept a vaccination.

 

[ajohn]

No modern and humane society would decline healthcare treatment to people who have made a conscious decision not to accept a vaccination.

Some country or the other has said fine don't have the jabs but if you find you need treatment for covid you will pay for it. Given that they exclude people who can not be jabbed for specific reasons that is entirely logical thinking.

Another factor. We have numerous laws aimed at protecting people from harming themselves and others. Why do some people say oh can't do this in covid areas as this is a democratic country. That given the other laws is clearly ludicrous. Also why do other democratic countries penalise people if they don't do what they should covid wise.

I wonder what will happen if things carry on for years given some of the statements that have been made.

 

[cwhaley]

Some country or the other has said fine don't have the jabs but if you find you need treatment for covid you will pay for it. Given that they exclude people who can not be jabbed for specific reasons that is entirely logical thinking.

Another factor. We have numerous laws aimed at protecting people from harming themselves and others. Why do some people say oh can't do this in covid areas as this is a democratic country. That given the other laws is clearly ludicrous. Also why do other democratic countries penalise people if they don't do what they should covid wise.

I wonder what will happen if things carry on for years given some of the statements that have been made.

I read the comment as refusal for medical treatment in its entirety, if that is the wrong assumption then I humbly apologise. I'd imagine the vast majority of those genuinely at risk from seasonal respiratory viruses would be vaccinated by now, so if you were unvaccinated and did catch it then it's highly unlikely you'd be hospitalised anyway. The figures seem to support that -- just had a look at the official UK.gov website graphs, and they are the same as they were in September with the trend currently flat.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

That's quite shocking to read -- do you really mean that? Bear in mind there are a great deal of healthcare staff who do not want to have the vaccine for a multitude of reasons; some of them entirely reasonable and justified.

No modern and humane society would decline healthcare treatment to people who have made a conscious decision not to accept a vaccination.

There are no reasonable reasons to avoid having the jabs, apart from if one is advised by a medical professional not to have it. 'Do not want it', that is not reasonable. Basically if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, that might well be their decision, but why then expect healthcare when they find they have made a wrong and very stupid decision?

When a personal choice is claimed under freedom, then the personal choice should not cost or impinge on the rest of society. Those not getting jabbed are costlng the rest of society, in that the hospital beds are being filled by the anti-jabs. Full beds means other operations have to be delayed and an ITU bed costs a lot of money, which would be better invested in the more sensible people of the UK. Those not accepting the jab are also at the greater risk of spreading the covid and prolonging it for everyone else.

 

[fillyboy]

In Germany they won't even kill you unless you've been double jabbed.

German euthanasia clinics refusing unvaccinated customers | The Spectator

 

[Mottie]

I wonder if you-know-who was heading there in 2019 when they posted their so-called final post?

 

[festive]

In Germany they won't even kill you unless you've been double jabbed.

German euthanasia clinics refusing unvaccinated customers | The Spectator

Oh i had to laugh at that oh the crazy world we have become...

 

[fillyboy]

Oh i had to laugh at that oh the crazy world we have become...

I can appreciate they want to protect their staff, but there is a bizarre irony about it.

 

[Mottie]

I think you-know-who has been out to see Jimmy Carr recently.

 

[ajohn]

a great deal of healthcare staff who do not want to have the vaccine

Does everyone who works for the NHS work in healthcare?

I think I'll just leave you to ponder that. I will add that the few I know that do work in actual healthcare are fully jabbed.

 

[fillyboy]

Does everyone who works for the NHS work in healthcare?

Figures being bandied about are that 10% of frontline staff, approx 130,000 are unvaccinated.

England hospital units may close as staff revolt over jab mandate, says NHS leader | NHS | The Guardian

130,000 frontline NHS staff are yet to be fully vaccinated | Express.co.uk

 

[Justin Passing]

I have some sympathy with those who don't want to be jabbed. We allow all manner of potty (in my view) religious reasons for not allowing one thing or another, we allow people to ride motorbikes, and smoke, and damage themselves disproportionately, though we do enforce crash helmets.
There are some known theoretical risks from having too many vaccines - vaccine enhanced infection, vaccine induced mutation - which a few know and worry about.
My booster shot must e waning a bit by now, and I wouldn't be super keen to have a fourth.
I don't think it's dead clear cut argument.
Whether it's enough to make someone redundant, is a tough call.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

I have some sympathy with those who don't want to be jabbed.

Wow, the clouds part and a little ray of reason shines through! How nice, although in your list of reasons for having the vaccines or not, you don't mention the most important: a person's free will and right to choose.

we allow people to ride motorbikes

The clouds close in again as we see how you really think. What gives you the authority to "allow" people to ride motorbikes?

 

[ajohn]

Whether it's enough to make someone redundant, is a tough call.

Figures being bandied about are that 10% of frontline staff, approx 130,000 are unvaccinated.

England hospital units may close as staff revolt over jab mandate, says NHS leader | NHS | The Guardian

130,000 frontline NHS staff are yet to be fully vaccinated | Express.co.uk

2 newspapers that I wouldn't see as being totally reliable. My son's latest lady is a nurse. That is looking serious so far. She did say that a lot wont take the vaccines and will be out of a job when the allotted timescale is up. She also said the timescales don't mean just a single jab. I never thought to ask who these people are. She's back at work now and will be working tomorrow. She already has to have a jab as is exposed to blood also a flu jab. Lots will have been accepting that, no choice. The NHS includes doctors.niurses including your local ones and their staff. Porters, assistants, technical areas people of one sort or another and many others, secretaries even. They may have finally given up trying to write software themselves.

If people wont get jabbed there is a tendency to think - stupid / thick.I see them in many cases as being sucked in by the usual. A lot work in the NHS some where or the other so a proportion will be sucked in. Take the general population just 77% of of 40-45 year olds have had one jab. 73% 2, 37% boosters. The NHS seems to be doing better than that. They are with 50 to 55 year olds too but not by so much. 87%,85%,61%. 60 to 65 are similar to the NHS. There will be a number of I'm ok jacks based on age. They get loads of 30's in at times. A fair % wont be ok. That is why controls are bought in from time to time as levels rise. Less need this time as they know that jabs help keep people out and improve the outlook if they have to go in, also shortening treatment time. A recent survey has shown the bulk of people in ICU/HDU are unvaccinated. That can mean weeks in there.

Now we have the too many jabs have side effects rumour. Reminds me of Canada. It seems that based on a totally theoretical study paid for by Pf they decided not to use any Az at all. What that reported hasn't happened. Pf have also concentrated on selling to richer countries with redacted contracts. They are now saying omicron needs 4 jabs. Israel which all countries watch is in that stage now. Due to omicron, I wonder due to mention of how long boosters actual last.

Funny thing is that all eventually at some point or the other in life trust the medical lot or just drop dead one day and even those may have survived longer if they did the right thing. Me I only trust them when I know I need to. Trust doesn't come into it really. I know they can't do anything about some problems that people get from time to time.