Utility Room electrics for Appliances

[ETAF]

have a look at Grid Switches - not sure what the Trades/experts here think - BUT
I now have 2 DP 20A grid switches above the W/top which each control 1 single NON switched socket

 

[pete01]

I would just put 2 x 2.5mm radials in and have the sockets behind, if you ever need to isolate you've got the consumer unit just above.

 

[DJ_DIY]

Ok. Try routing the cable more efficiently

Oh nice thanks. I was under the impression hidden cables had to be vertical only.

have a look at Grid Switches

ok thanks I will. i wanted to keep the worktop area nice and clean so whatever i use to isolate an undercounter socket will be hidden in the cupboard.

I would just put 2 x 2.5mm radials in and have the sockets behind, if you ever need to isolate you've got the consumer unit just above.

I have 4 spare MCB's.... Sockets, Lights, Oven, and maybe an oven thats also a microwave so Im out of space !!

 

[pete01]

Oh nice thanks. I was under the impression hidden cables had to be vertical only.

No you can go along the top 150mm from the ceiling, I don't like it but you can.

 

[JohnD]

...if you ever need to isolate you've got the consumer unit just above.

Unless you need a DP switch, for example chasing an earth leakage, or in case the housrholder needs immediate access to cut power to a faulty appliance that might have a water leak or be on fire.

 

[morqthana]

Adding yet more circuits to a single RCD makes a poor situation worse. One fault and half the house goes off and stays off until whatever failed is disconnected.
With numerous modern electronic items connected, you may find the RCD trips even when there is no fault.

And didn't I read somewhere that you need a different type of RCD for modern appliances?

 

[pete01]

Unless you need a DP switch, for example chasing an earth leakage, or in case the housrholder needs immediate access to cut power to a faulty appliance that might have a water leak or be on fire.

Main switch? Then pull out and unplug as you'll probably have to anyway if the appliance is faulty.

 

[ericmark]

If the CU is designed for 2 RCD's x 8 MCBs with SPD, why not?

Had the same discussion with my son (also an electrical engineer) and I have to admit RCD's have improved over the years, but taking this house as an example, want to arrange it so if there is a fault which causes the socket circuits to trip, one is not plunged into darkness as well. And the only way would be all lights on one RCD and all sockets on the other, there is no other way to arrange it.

So AC will allow capacitive and inductive linking, so step one is to work out what that is in mA. So simple measure it

here you can see my whole house leaks 8 mA, the limit for one RCD is 9 mA or 30% of the RCD rating, I am clearly very near the limit, and most of that will be on the ring finals.

The ring finals are split front main house, rear main house, and flat under main house, the whole idea of splitting them, is so under fault conditions one can continue until the fault is fixed, so with the flat the cooker with has a single socket on the isolator would be the only supply, and with main house, again cooker, plus the UPS feeding the freezers, and surviving ring final, the main point is split side to side, so do not need extension lead up or down stairs.

So what limits the number of RCD's is how many neutral bars, and most consumer units only have 3, so one can do a risk assessment, and use just some RCBO's so would want them on circuits supplying equipment with mineral insulated elements as found in freezers, dishwasher, ovens, washing machines, and the list goes on.

So my ring finals, and cooker supplies, and the immersion heater, so 6 x RCBO's required. Would be a good idea to have lights on them, so add another 3 x RCBO's the CU is only 14 way, so only 5 MCB's left, and 5 RCBO's are cheaper to 5 MCB's plus 2 RCD's, and it means the consumer unit is 4 slots shorter.

But for me the main reason is, if anything trips, I need to go outside, and walk down a set of steps and go into the flat to reset, not for faint-hearted in the snow or frost, already had one fall doing it. My son still has to go outside, but at least on the flat.

I was so glad when I did have a RCBO trip, that my freezers were not on that RCBO, and I could wait until daylight to reset. The annoying thing is I never did find the cause, and I have all the gear.

The UPS supply to my freezers saved the day, I am not saying fit an UPS, it was an option when installing solar panels and battery, but also until fault cleared, it was handy to be able to run an extension lead to keep internet and voice control working.

I have not quoted regulations, I have tried to keep it to practical reasons why the MCB has very little use today, supply to the SPD and SWA to outbuildings maybe are the only use for them today.

 

[flameport]

a different type of RCD for modern appliances?

Type A as a minimum. F, B or B+ may be needed for some.

 

[JohnD]

A kitchen, utility room or workroom needs quite a lot of switches and sockets.

My own futility room holds a fridge-freezer, washer, dryer, iron, kettle, radio, extractor, phone charger, fan heater, sometimes a microwave, sometimes (because it is next to the guest room) a toaster, sometimes an extension lead for power tools or hoovering the car. It has ample outlets.

IMO, a kitchen, utility room or workroom benefits from a row of switches and sockets about 150mm above the worktop. This is economical in effort and materials, because you only need one chase. If you run the cable in oval conduit plastered in, it is easy to cut out for another switch or socket if you later find you have been too parsimonious. My preference is for a double socket at least every metre, and switches or FCUs for outdoor socket, appliance sockets below the worktop, and flex outlets at high level for extractor, boiler, lights, etc. The safe zone for the concealed cables is very obvious. My own kitchen has this along three walls. Because it has a wooden floor it was easy to interrupt the RFC to extend it, but modern practice is to have a dedicated radial, which would be easy for the OP as the CU is so handy. Invest in a labelmaker for your switches, or buy engraved ones. If your CU is suitable, I would upgrade to RCBOs. Consider a dedicated circuit for your FF, because watery appliances like kettles, washers and irons are more likely to cause trips.

 

[morqthana]

Maybe not in a kitchen, but in a utility room that surface trunking which has sockets in it that they make for offices might be an answer?

 

[JohnD]

Yes, even easier, and can look OK.

 

[ebee]

No you can go along the top 150mm from the ceiling, I don't like it but you can.

View attachment 383611

On a personal level , my preference is always verticals.
I`m still Ok with horizontals in places it is clear that it is likely, kitchen is a good example.
I am not keen on the corners though and more so (less keen) the top of wall portion.
Yet they all comply so I can not condemn them!

And of course some people seem to be intent on banging a nail in to hold a picture up directly vertical above a socket or switch.

 

[pete01]

On a personal level , my preference is always verticals.
I`m still Ok with horizontals in places it is clear that it is likely, kitchen is a good example.
I am not keen on the corners though and more so (less keen) the top of wall portion.
Yet they all comply so I can not condemn them!

And of course some people seem to be intent on banging a nail in to hold a picture up directly vertical above a socket or switch.

I agree, I think the corner zone is madness really, not many non electricians would know about that one.

 

[Taylortwocities]

High current loads like, washing machines, must be plugged in to a single socket not a double. Read this.

Warning to anyone with washing machine in kitchen plug sockets | UK | News | Express.co.uk

Anyone who has a washing machine in their kitchen plug sockets has been issued a warning by fire chiefs.

www.express.co.uk