Horizontal safe zone with 'dry lining' back boxes

[ebee]

"13A total". However, if that were all that the socket could cope with, it obviously would not be able to pass the BS 1363 temp rise test.

Yes it needs to pass the test (a "type test") to show that is likely to pass almost any 13A test you could throw at it, in my mind it would be strange if they did not employ this particular test but in any event this does not "prove" it acceptable to be loaded at 14A & 6A for an indefinite period although it might actually achieve that in practice.
In other words it gives us additional courage that it should achieve what is specified (It`s OK at 13A) at least. It adds some headroom really I suppose.
Unless we can get BSA to actually state that any twin socket must be able to pass in 13A each side for an extremely long period or indefinitely we must accept that 13A is the total maximum. that any twin or single socket is rated for?
In this industry (and others I hope) we do actually test beyond what we are officially calling safe working limits surely.
CCC of cables. SWL of lifting machinery. Use by dates on foodstuff . Safe doses of medicine, just a few examples.

PS - even I would be a little hesitant to run even a good make of socket above 10A for a long period, connected by a good plug and decently made off flex connections in that plug etc. But I would expect that it "should" be safe to run at 13A forever or for yonks in effect.
There are some nasty brands I would not have much confidence in though.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes it needs to pass the test (a "type test") to show that is likely to pass almost any 13A test you could throw at it, in my mind it would be strange if they did not employ this particular test ...

It's the test that any socket has to be able to pass to be BS1363-compliant.

but in any event this does not "prove" it acceptable to be loaded at 14A & 6A for an indefinite period although it might actually achieve that in practice.

"Prove" is a very strong word/concept, but the nearest one can reasonably get is to take regular samples from the production line and demonstrate that they are able to pass the required test. I'm not sure that 'for an indefinite period' is a problem, since the test has to be conductor for at least 4 hours OR until a (thermal) steady state is reached - so there should not be any further temp rise during use beyond the period of the test.

Unless we can get BSA to actually state that any twin socket must be able to pass in 13A each side for an extremely long period or indefinitely we must accept that 13A is the total maximum. that any twin or single socket is rated for?

I don't think one could criticise any member of the general public for believing (as I imagine most do) that a 13A double socket was OK for supplying 2 x `13A loads for an indefinite period of time, which is why I have always wondered/asked why on earth BSI did not require a test that would confirm that such use was OK.

I think the real problem is that the tests are, almost 'necessarily', undertaken on brand new sockets, ideally connected. I find it hard to believe that any of the currents we are talking about would result in overheating of any of the 'lumps of brass' within a socket. Assuming that the incoming cable is terminated correctly, I imagine that most overheating is due to less-than-ideal contact between plug pins and socket - and, indeed, in practice usually due to overheating in the plug, due to poor contact with fuse - all of which probably gets gradually worse during years of service.

 

[ebee]

I don't think one could criticise any member of the general public for believing (as I imagine most do) that a 13A double socket was OK for supplying 2 x `13A loads for an indefinite period of time, which is why I have always wondered/asked why on earth BSI did not require a test that would confirm that such use was OK.

Well actually yes I do agree with you on that, the first thing it should do is to be clear to any ordinary person any maximum, that would be sensible

 

[ebee]

I think the real problem is that the tests are, almost 'necessarily', undertaken on brand new sockets, ideally connected. I find it hard to believe that any of the currents we are talking about would result in overheating of any of the 'lumps of brass' within a socket. Assuming that the incoming cable is terminated correctly, I imagine that most overheating is due to less-than-ideal contact between plug pins and socket - and, indeed, in practice usually due to overheating in the plug, due to poor contact with fuse - all of which probably gets gradually worse during years of service.

Once again I think you are probably correct too

 

[ebee]

and if it stated either " Each outlet" or "Total Load" would be great too

 

[JohnW2]

and if it stated either " Each outlet" or "Total Load" would be great too

"Clarity" does not seem to be one of their priorities and/or virtues

 

[ebee]

"Clarity" does not seem to be one of their priorities and/or virtues

Yes indeed, sometimes committees, professions, politicians, official bodies do seem intent on beggaring things up in the most awkward of ways possible, some of them even excel in the concept too

 

[JohnW2]

"Clarity" does not seem to be one of their priorities and/or virtues

Yes indeed, sometimes committees, professions, politicians, official bodies do seem intent on beggaring things up in the most awkward of ways possible, some of them even excel in the concept too

I think that one of the problems often stems from failure to adequately 'field test' documents for which 'calrity' (and lack of ambiguity) is really a fairly crucial requirement.

Over the years/decades, I've quite often been involved in the preparation (writing, 'refining', 'proof reading' etc.) of various types of 'instructions', informative documents and regulations etc., and one of the later stages has very often been such 'field testing'. Even though several (often many) people have 'vetted' the documents before that happens, I have quite often been surprised, sometimes even 'shocked' (and perhaps even a little embarrassed!), to find that members of the target population were able to misunderstand and/or misinterpret what we had believed was very carefully worded 'clear language'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Does anybody make sockets, switches, etc with oversized wall plates?

Most rope edged accessories are oversized

 

[morqthana]

I think that one of the problems often stems from failure to adequately 'field test' documents for which 'calrity' (and lack of ambiguity) is really a fairly crucial requirement.

And correct spelling.

Sorry - couldn't resist....

 

[JohnW2]

And correct spelling. .... Sorry - couldn't resist....

As you must realise, that was a typo, not so much a spelling error.

However, to be serious, and to reinforce what I always say about language (that the most crucial thing is that it should facilitate 'clear and unambiguous communication') when undertaking such 'field testing', or even just routine 'proof reading', matters of spelling, grammar and 'terminology' are often the least of the concerns. Indeed, as regards the latter, technically 'incorrect' terminology is sometimes used deliberately if it is more likely to be understood, and clearly understood, by the target audience.

 

[ebee]

Talking about spelling reminds me, some years back now our local council installed new street signage and got berated in the local rag letters page.
One of my sons (a real brainbox in many respects) read the ensuing arguments and not see what all the fuss was about, he saw it as pedantic.
I disagreed with him, for a normal person to make that mistake although incorrect was not a major flaw and no harm done then yes I would think pedantic to make adverse comments. But for a council to employ signwriters without sufficient knowledge of our language was employing amateurs in my opinion.
What did the three new signs say (at the bottom a left or right arrowed the direction) and on the sign was "Shopper's Car Park" a great example of the age old "Grocers Apostrophe" or should I have stated "Grocer's Apostrophe" LOL.

Anyway, if this continues I will resurrect my old 12AM v 12PM error !!!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Anyway, if this continues I will resurrect my old 12AM v 12PM error !!!

I much prefer, noon and midnight, to avoid the confusion. I notice even Alexa's voice acknowledgement of asking for a reminder at 12pm, confirms with it with the word at 'noon'.

 

[JohnW2]

Talking about spelling reminds me .... on the sign was "Shopper's Car Park"

I would call that a grammatical error, rather than a spelling mistake, and whilst I agree with you that no such error should appear in official signage, it is probably one of the most common grammatical errors, confusions and uncertainties in the minds of the English-speaking public. Indeed, although the correct use of apostrophes seems, in general, simple enough to me, most of the members of my family say that they "don't really understand it".

Mind you, even I become a bit 'uncertain' in the case of a singular noun which ends in an 's'

In the case you mention, it might not be totally the fault of the signwriter, since they will often do "exactly what they have been told to do". I remember, many years ago, a story about a printer (English, in England) who produced a batch of thousands of business cards (or something like that) and, in so doing had, with good intent, 'corrected spelling errors' in what he had been asked to print. However,he was then asked (by the American customer) to do it all again "with proper US spelling" However, in such cases one would hope that the signwriter/printer/whoever would at least 'query' what they had been asked to write/print, if it appeared to be possibly wrong!

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would call that a grammatical error, rather than a spelling mistake,

Would you be correct in so doing?