Advice on moving double socket to allow for radiator

[morqthana]

Sunray - I get the impression from you referencing this thread in another one that you think I'm arguing with you cynically, and insincerely, just to wind you up.

What kind of life you have led, what kind of behaviour you are used to in yourself, your friends, your family, your work colleagues, which leads you to think that anybody who argues with you can't be genuine I shudder to think.

The simple fact is that that the regulation says

" ... Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, ... "

A blanking plate does not have a cable connected to it.

A junction box recessed into the wall is not on the surface of the wall.

The simple fact is that I genuinely and sincerely believe that you are wrong, and that there is absolutely no way to "interpret" the regulation to not mean what it clearly and unequivocally says in black and white.

The simple fact is that I am arguing with you because you are wrong, and that therefore there is a moral imperative to challenge your incorrect assertions.

I'm not doing it for sport. Such an idea is entirely imaginary, and suggests arrogance on your part to assume that as you can't be wrong no argument against you can be genuine.

 

[SUNRAY]

Sunray - I get the impression from you referencing this thread in another one that you think I'm arguing with you cynically, and insincerely, just to wind you up.

Quite the contrary, I don't believe you are attempting to wind me up.

What kind of life you have led, what kind of behaviour you are used to in yourself, your friends, your family, your work colleagues, which leads you to think that anybody who argues with you can't be genuine I shudder to think.

Eh?

The simple fact is that that the regulation says

" ... Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, ... "

A blanking plate does not have a cable connected to it.


A junction box recessed into the wall is not on the surface of the wall.

However terminals mounted in the recessed back box can have cable connected to it. Just in case you dont know what a junction box is and the way many of them have been manufactured I suggest you look them up, there is an almost unlimited combination out there.
However a junction box recessed into the wall with an exposed front plate is on the surface of the wall in exactly the same way as a 13A socket etc.

The simple fact is that I genuinely and sincerely believe that you are wrong, and that there is absolutely no way to "interpret" the regulation to not mean what it clearly and unequivocally says in black and white.

The simple fact is that I genuinely and sincerely believe that you are wrong in as much as you have no idea what types of junction box are available and what form they are permitted to take.

The simple fact is that I am arguing with you because you are wrong, and that therefore there is a moral imperative to challenge your incorrect assertions.

In that case I suggest you write multiple pages of proof that I am wrong in describing junction boxes. If you are able to find that proof I'll happily apologise for getting it wrong.

I'm not doing it for sport. Such an idea is entirely imaginary, and suggests arrogance on your part to assume that as you can't be wrong no argument against you can be genuine.

Why are you introducing sport into your flawed arguement?

 

[securespark]

The simple fact is that that the regulation says

" ... Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, ... "

A blanking plate does not have a cable connected to it.

Flameport, in the quoted post, said:

To create a zone, the wiring has to be connected to the accessory. A blank plate has no connections for wiring so doesn't create any zones.

The definition that is crucial here is:

point (in wiring).
A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.

I have just come off the phone to Michael at the IET tech helpline.

He assured me that making off connections behind a blank plate is very much a compliant practice and keeps the cables in a "safe" zone, providing they were correctly positioned in the first place. Just because the conductors are attached only to connectors does not mean they are not "intended for the connection of current-using equipment".

 

[morqthana]

If we saw one of these in the middle of a wallView attachment 422866Nobody, not even Flameport or mister Mindy would give it a second thought, why anybody questions a perfectly normal electrical accessory I don't understand.

One of those on the surface of the wall would be fine.

One of those sunk into the wall would not be on the surface of the wall.

 

[pete01]

One of those on the surface of the wall would be fine.

One of those sunk into the wall would not be on the surface of the wall.

I dont get ya, if you can see it does it matter?

 

[SUNRAY]

Flameport, in the quoted post, said:

To create a zone, the wiring has to be connected to the accessory. A blank plate has no connections for wiring so doesn't create any zones.

The definition that is crucial here is:

point (in wiring).
A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.

I have just come off the phone to Michael at the IET tech helpline.

He assured me that making off connections behind a blank plate is very much a compliant practice and keeps the cables in a "safe" zone, providing they were correctly positioned in the first place. Just because the conductors are attached only to connectors does not mean they are not "intended for the connection of current-using equipment".

At last some more realistic interpretaion of the regulations, I'd already made the same enquiry with NICEIC this morning and received a very similar response a short while ago:

I take it you are referring to the thread on DIYnot which we have been discussing between ourselves, or maybe a similar situation?
Comment about interpretation of the regs by the contributors and their opinions removed at this point, it continues with:

Ignoring the access issue caused by the radiator for now there is nothing wrong with using any enclosure with suitable IP rating for the purpose of jointing cables, be it surface mounted or recessed into the wall, as long as it's apparent it is an electrical accessory.
If totally buried it must be maintenance free using suitable connectors, crimped or soldered/brazed, however that situation would require suitable safezone markers. If connectors such as Wago's are used they would be required to be fitted in a MF configuration and not left loose in the enclosure.
If it has a visible element such as a lid, cover or standard blanking plate, that in itself will create a safe zone vertically and horizontally.

Returning to the radiator situation we have mixed opinions as to the accessibility situation, 2 of 5 opted for MF as such we have erred on the side of reasonable doubt and opted for MF as mentioned above.
Additionally we also discussed the option of spurring or extending both cables to maintain the new socket position in the ring and of course both options are compliant, our vote is 3 of 5 to create a spur, however that will prevent easy future extension at that point such as another socket the other side of the bed.
I trust this answers your questions, don't hesitate to follow up if you wish.
By the way my I ask your nom de plume if this is regarding the DIYnot topic?

At that point (without any current using equipment added) I feel my interpretation of the situation has been satisfactory.

 

[morqthana]

Quite the contrary, I don't believe you are attempting to wind me up.

So there's a group of you using direct messaging to discuss my posts

That's the problem, the group of us in DM's don't know what it actually says.

and to discuss whether I am being genuine or not, and forming the conclusion that I regularly make cynical, insincere posts just to wind people up, to cause disruption or provoke emotional responses, for my own amusement.

Ohhhh I see, many of us thought it's something you do on a regular basis.

And that

Without your input we would be able to offer sensible advice without it being compromised.

When I asked you for an example of that, you cited this thread.

But now you don't think I'm trying to wind you up here.

OK.

Eh?

So why, then? Fundamentally WHY does the idea that people make dishonest posts come so readily to you?

However terminals mounted in the recessed back box can have cable connected to it.

But that's not what the regulation actually requires, is it.

Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition.

However a junction box recessed into the wall with an exposed front plate is on the surface of the wall in exactly the same way as a 13A socket etc.

It absolutely is not.

Even if you bring it forward so that it is flush with the surface of the wall it is still not on the surface of the wall.

The simple fact is that I genuinely and sincerely believe that you are wrong in as much as you have no idea what types of junction box are available and what form they are permitted to take.

There are many types. But whatever type is chosen, to create a zone for cables, the cables have to be connected to it and it has to be on the surface of the wall. Not recessed behind, not flush with, not merely visible, on it.

Why are you introducing sport into your flawed arguement?

Don't be childish.

 

[morqthana]

I dont get ya, if you can see it does it matter?

Show me where the regulation says that zones are created by accessories which are only need to be visible.

 

[pete01]

Show me where he regulation says that zones are created by accessories which are visible.

View attachment 422994

You think invisible accessories create zones?

 

[morqthana]

point (in wiring).
A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.

By the way, the regs make a distinction between terminating and joining cables.

I have just come off the phone to Michael at the IET tech helpline.

He assured me that making off connections behind a blank plate is very much a compliant practice and keeps the cables in a "safe" zone, providing they were correctly positioned in the first place. Just because the conductors are attached only to connectors does not mean they are not "intended for the connection of current-using equipment".

Has this Michael at the IET tech helpline been given the authority to declare that something is compliant when it does not comply with the regulations as written?

Look at that regulation again. It doesn't matter how much someone sticks their fingers in their ears and covers their eyes and says "itdoesn'tmeanthatitmeansthisitdoesn'tmeanthatitmeansthisitdoesn'tmeanthatitmeansthisitdoesn'tmeanthatitmeansthisitdoesn'tmeanthatitmeansthis" the written word of BS 7671 will not change, and will never start to agree with what Michael at the IET tech helpline has said.

 

[morqthana]

You think invisible accessories create zones?

Apologies for that carelessness, now corrected.

Show me where the regulation says that zones are created by accessories which only need to be visible.

 

[pete01]

Apologies for that carelessness, now corrected.

Show me where the regulation says that zones are created by accessories which only need to be visible.

Show you how? the regs don't explain every detail but it's pure common sense mate.

 

[morqthana]

At last some more realistic interpretaion of the regulations

Err, no.

You do not "interpret" regulations in a way which does not agree with what the regulations actually say.

Ignoring the access issue caused by the radiator for now there is nothing wrong with using any enclosure with suitable IP rating for the purpose of jointing cables, be it surface mounted or recessed into the wall, as long as it's apparent it is an electrical accessory.

But "recessed into the wall" is not what the regulations actually say.

If totally buried it must be maintenance free using suitable connectors, crimped or soldered/brazed, however that situation would require suitable safezone markers.

What are "safezone markers"? Are they referred to in BS 7671?

If connectors such as Wago's are used they would be required to be fitted in a MF configuration and not left loose in the enclosure.
If it has a visible element such as a lid, cover or standard blanking plate, that in itself will create a safe zone vertically and horizontally.

That is not what the regulations actually say.

They require the cable(s) to be connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on the surface of the wall or partition. A lid or a cover or a standard blanking plate behind which cables are joined or terminated does not have a cable connected to it

At that point (without any current using equipment added) I feel my interpretation of the situation has been satisfactory.

I'm sure you do. But it very much is not.

Have NICEIC been given the authority to declare that something is compliant when it does not comply with the regulations as written?

 

[pete01]

OMG

 

[morqthana]

Show you how? the regs don't explain every detail but it's pure common sense mate.

In how many places do the regulations say "you must do XYZ, or something different if you think it make sense"?

But if you want to look at it in terms of "common sense", try this:

To create a zone, the wiring has to be connected to the accessory. A blank plate has no connections for wiring so doesn't create any zones.

Is that because the blank plate could be removed without touching any electrical connections, and plastered over?

Yes.