25A MCB on 2.5mm kitchen radial

I read it as "can't be wired through non-BS1363 device therefore can't share a circuit with BS1363 stuff". If the oven is suitable to be connected directly to a 25A supply, then I can't see why it wouldn't be allowed - not exactly good practice, but not forbidden.

I know it's a specific restriction in allowing an RFC to use 2.5mm cable protected by a 32A MCB - but this isn't included in that situation.
 
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I read it as "can't be wired through non-BS1363 device therefore can't share a circuit with BS1363 stuff". If the oven is suitable to be connected directly to a 25A supply, then I can't see why it wouldn't be allowed - not exactly good practice, but not forbidden.
I agree with what you say (but definitely not very nice practice), but what Owain wrote was:
Also if it's > 13A it can't be wired through a FCU and so...
... so I think the 13A fuse was probably his main issue.
I know it's a specific restriction in allowing an RFC to use 2.5mm cable protected by a 32A MCB - but this isn't included in that situation.
Indeed. Quite apart from the issue of point-loading/overloading a ring final (which is covered in the 'informative' Appendix 15), one can argue that the regs themselves don't really offer a way of attaching a load >13A to a ring final, since it can't be done through any BS1363 accessory. I suppose it could just be a JB, but I suspect that many would probably question whether that would be compliant.

Kind Regards, John
 
Also if it's > 13A it can't be wired through a FCU and so shouldn't be be on a standard circuit shared with BS1363 socket outlets.
Does that apply to radials ?

AIUI yes it applies to the standard circuit for general purpose socket outlets.

It would become a non-standard circuit but could probably be designed to be compliant with the Regulations. After all an ordinary cooker control unit is simply a cooker on a radial circuit with a socket in the same box.
 
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It would become a non-standard circuit but could probably be designed to be compliant with the Regulations. After all an ordinary cooker control unit is simply a cooker on a radial circuit with a socket in the same box.
Exactly.

Kind Regards, John
 
What exactly is being asked, here? You can properly design circuits for whatever you want.
Quite so - and, as has been pointed out, there's nothing unprecedented about a radial circuit supplying one largish fixed-wired load (e.g. a cooker) plus a socket. Whether the largish load can be supplied via a 13A plug or 13A FCU, rather than being fixed-wired, obviously 'depends'.

Kind Regards, John
 
... one can argue that the regs themselves don't really offer a way of attaching a load >13A to a ring final, since it can't be done through any BS1363 accessory. I suppose it could just be a JB, but I suspect that many would probably question whether that would be compliant.
I don't think there's any argue or question about that bit - AIUI the regs don't allow anything but BS1363 accessories connected to a 2.5mm RFC on a 32A MCB. That's a fairly reasonable restriction in return for being allowed to use an "undersized" cable in the circuit.

But that's not what's being discussed here. The post I was querying inferred that the same limitation applies to a radial (in this case done with 2.5mm cable and a 25A MCB). AIUI, this circuit would be compliant with the various stuff about cable sizes etc and wouldn't need the restriction to make it "safe". As others have pointed out, we already have a situation where a radial has a large point load and a cooker - and I can't see any logical reason not to just stick the cooker onto the radial circuit using a suitable JB or connection unit. If it's not suitable to be connected directly with a 25A MCB, then there are fused units other than BS1363 that could be used - even a 1 module enclosure with a 16 or 20A MCB would do.

But since I'm not familiar with the regs to that level, I was asking if there is in fact any such restriction applying to a radial circuit where the cable is of an adequate CCC and so doesn't need to use the exception applying to RFCs.
 
... one can argue that the regs themselves don't really offer a way of attaching a load >13A to a ring final, since it can't be done through any BS1363 accessory. I suppose it could just be a JB, but I suspect that many would probably question whether that would be compliant.
I don't think there's any argue or question about that bit - AIUI the regs don't allow anything but BS1363 accessories connected to a 2.5mm RFC on a 32A MCB. That's a fairly reasonable restriction in return for being allowed to use an "undersized" cable in the circuit.
If it's the strict word of the regs you're interested in, I think there actually is plenty to "argue or question". As has often been discussed here, although the regs say that accessories to BS1363 may be connected to a ring final (or associated spurs), there is actually nothing written which says that is an 'exhaustive statement' - i.e. the fact that it says that 'accessories to BS1363 may be connected..." does not necessarily mean (certainly doesn't say) that other things may not also be connected to a ring final. If it has meant "only BS1363 accessories", it could easily have said so, but didn't. As has been discussed, JBs (not BS1363) are accepted on ring finals, and so are DP switches (e.g. grid switches, again not BS1363) quite often seen in spurs from ring finals (e.g. in kitchens)
But that's not what's being discussed here. The post I was querying inferred that the same limitation applies to a radial (in this case done with 2.5mm cable and a 25A MCB).
As above, it's far from certain that there is such a 'restriction' in relation to ring finals, let alone radials. I'm not sure that your thinking that this is all to do with the 'undersized' cable in a RFC is necessarily right (although it obviously 'helps' in that respect). It is certainly allowable to have a point loading of at least 20A on a ring final (one double socket), and two double sockets side-by-side on a ring would facilitate more than the total design current of the circuit (32A) to be drawn from virtually a 'single point' on the ring.

Whatever, I'm sure you're right that there is no issue about >13A loads on a radial circuit. Provided the cable and OPD are appropriate, we're all familiar with much larger loads than that on radials (think showers and large cookers, for a start), and there's no reason why one cannot 'design in' a socket or three onto the same circuit, if one so wishes. However, as before, there obviously would be an issue with running any load >13A via a BS1363 plug/socket or a 13A FCU.
But since I'm not familiar with the regs to that level, I was asking if there is in fact any such restriction applying to a radial circuit where the cable is of an adequate CCC and so doesn't need to use the exception applying to RFCs.
See above.

Kind Regards, John
 
I know this should be a new thread but it's a short question that is relevant to discussions like these ...

Something I've often wondered - if we have say a 3 KW load, is that 12.5A or 13.04A? Because one would be ok on a BS1363 and one would (just) not be.

As I understand it the UK is nominally 230V but in practise it's still 240V - they just changed the supply voltage tolerance to shift the problem onto device manufacturers.
 
Something I've often wondered - if we have say a 3 KW load, is that 12.5A or 13.04A? Because one would be ok on a BS1363 and one would (just) not be.
12.5A because the manufacture will have stated the power at 240V

As I understand it the UK is nominally 230V but in practise it's still 240V - they just changed the supply voltage tolerance to shift the problem onto device manufacturers.
Nominal is just that and used for calculations.
If you want/need to use this then you also have to convert the power (watts)
because that too will be lower at 230V.

The actual resistance of the element is the only constant (allowing for temperature which will also be the same for all voltages).
 
Something I've often wondered - if we have say a 3 KW load, is that 12.5A or 13.04A? Because one would be ok on a BS1363 and one would (just) not be. ... As I understand it the UK is nominally 230V but in practise it's still 240V - they just changed the supply voltage tolerance to shift the problem onto device manufacturers.
Interesting question, and I suppose the short answer is a rather 'silly' one, in that all circuit design calculations are meant to be done on the basis of the nominal voltage (i.e. 230V), regardless of what the actual supply voltage happens to be. Also don't forget that a '230V' nominal supply is allowed to be as high as 253V (230V + 10%).

There is, however, another complication, which may also be regarded as a 'saving grace'. Manufacturer's still generally quote power figures at 240V. Hence, something called "3 kW" quite probably only draws about 12.5A at 240V or, if it is purely resistive (e.g.a heater) about 12A at 230V.

Kind Regards, John
 

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