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A bit of bondage!
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Part 1 Introduction, Interpretation 2 - (i)
Circuit conductor - means any conductor in a system which is intended to carry electric current in normal conditions, or to be energised in normal conditions; and includes combined nuetral and earth conductors, but does not include a conductor provided solely to perform a protective function by connection to earth or other reference point.
Conductor - means a conductor of electrical energy.
Part 2 General, Regulation 8 - Earthing or other suitable precautions.
Precautions shall be taken, either by earthing or other suitable means, to prevent danger arising when any conductor (other than a circuit conductor) which may reasonable foreseeably become charged as a result of either the use of the system, or a fault in a system, becomes so charged; and, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with this regulation, a conductor shall be regarded as earthed when it is connected to the general mass of the earth by conductors of sufficient strength and current carrying capacity to discharge electrical energy to earth.
'Other suitable means' refers to the use of obstacles, placing out of reach or insulation.
Radiators, metal sinks, baths and other pieces of copper pipe work are all 'conductors of electrical energy'.
The RCD will prevent a shock of 30mA, but will not prevent a shock of an extended duration of a magnitude of less than 30mA; and as (unlike a flexible domestic/light industrial circuit conductor) a 'conductor' can be of any shape or size, a 'conductor' may well be gripped by the human hand and therefore the duration of the shock will be increased when the 'conductor' in question has become hazardous live as a result of it coming into contact with a damaged flexible 'circuit conductor'. Hence the importance of Regulation 8 of the EAWR 1989 (or UK Law)!
Circuit conductor - means any conductor in a system which is intended to carry electric current in normal conditions, or to be energised in normal conditions; and includes combined nuetral and earth conductors, but does not include a conductor provided solely to perform a protective function by connection to earth or other reference point.
Conductor - means a conductor of electrical energy.
Part 2 General, Regulation 8 - Earthing or other suitable precautions.
Precautions shall be taken, either by earthing or other suitable means, to prevent danger arising when any conductor (other than a circuit conductor) which may reasonable foreseeably become charged as a result of either the use of the system, or a fault in a system, becomes so charged; and, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with this regulation, a conductor shall be regarded as earthed when it is connected to the general mass of the earth by conductors of sufficient strength and current carrying capacity to discharge electrical energy to earth.
'Other suitable means' refers to the use of obstacles, placing out of reach or insulation.
Radiators, metal sinks, baths and other pieces of copper pipe work are all 'conductors of electrical energy'.
The RCD will prevent a shock of 30mA, but will not prevent a shock of an extended duration of a magnitude of less than 30mA; and as (unlike a flexible domestic/light industrial circuit conductor) a 'conductor' can be of any shape or size, a 'conductor' may well be gripped by the human hand and therefore the duration of the shock will be increased when the 'conductor' in question has become hazardous live as a result of it coming into contact with a damaged flexible 'circuit conductor'. Hence the importance of Regulation 8 of the EAWR 1989 (or UK Law)!
H
holmslaw
Be careful what you wish for.
I wonder if he wrote that himself, or if he copied it from something?
I've got some brass doorknobs, they are very likely to be gripped by the human hand. Is there anything in davids post that excludes them from needing to be earthed?
I've got some brass doorknobs, they are very likely to be gripped by the human hand. Is there anything in davids post that excludes them from needing to be earthed?
Most of it has been copied, with several mistakes.
The key words which apparently have been overlooked deliberately are 'may reasonably foreseeably become charged'.
There are no reasonable circumstances in which a metal bath, sink, radiator, doorknob, window frame, bog roll holder or other metal items unrelated to an electrical installation could become charged (i.e. connected to a live source).
Mr Cockburn's entire argument appears to rely on a ficticious damaged flex somehow contacting these metal items and therefore causing a shock risk. While this is not impossible, it is highly improbable, and therefore of no relevance to how an electrical system is designed.
With regard to:
while that is almost correct, the current which flows when a person in contact with a live conductor will in virtually all circumstances be far greater than 30mA, and if less, the effect on the person would be minimal or none.
I think you ought to read up on what a system is with respect to the electrical installations, instead of wittering on about how a piece of copper pipework etc is conductive.
It is NOT highly improbably for a damaged flex or item of equipment to contact a metal sink, radiator or similar item. Door handles I agree are probably never going to become in contact with a damaged flex.
An electrical system should be designed to be safe what ever "reasonable" fault occurs. But how does one define "reasonable".
Oh no...........
oh gawd, looks like hes managed to peel the glue bag off his face and started posting again.
As if there hasnt been enough long winded pointless drivel posts in this forum recently
oi-oi Cocky, where you been hiding for the past 9 months? Why have you returned?
As if there hasnt been enough long winded pointless drivel posts in this forum recently
oi-oi Cocky, where you been hiding for the past 9 months? Why have you returned?
I just have a sneeky feeling he is one of the regulars on here under a different guise................
What I have quoted above is exactly as it appears within the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (which is still UK Law).
The fact that you have not foreseen a problem is your own look out, what is 'reasonably foreseeable is for a Judge and Jury to decide.
A metal door knob is unlikely to come into contact with a circuit conductor but if it did, the door is on hinges and can be moved which would be likely to break the contact.
You only have to touch the back of your finger on an energised circuit conductor to know that an RCD doesn't work indoors, that any shock of below 30mA is very painful indeed and that if the duration of that shock is increased it is very likely to be fatal!
The fact that you have not foreseen a problem is your own look out, what is 'reasonably foreseeable is for a Judge and Jury to decide.
A metal door knob is unlikely to come into contact with a circuit conductor but if it did, the door is on hinges and can be moved which would be likely to break the contact.
You only have to touch the back of your finger on an energised circuit conductor to know that an RCD doesn't work indoors, that any shock of below 30mA is very painful indeed and that if the duration of that shock is increased it is very likely to be fatal!
Are you ignorant, or stupid?
Hi John d,
An RCD only works when the human body is in good contact with earth, either outdoors or when for examle your left hand is touching earth and then you touch a circuit conductor with your right hand.
Try touching an energised circuit conductor and prove it to yourself.
An RCD only works when the human body is in good contact with earth, either outdoors or when for examle your left hand is touching earth and then you touch a circuit conductor with your right hand.
Try touching an energised circuit conductor and prove it to yourself.
Put into context David has stated a actual truth but in not very clear language. Touching a live conductor and not touching any earthed item can produce a "shock" in the form of a sensation as a small amount of capacitively coupled current flows through the finger and arm. This current is unlikely to be anywhere near 30 milli amps so an RCD protecting that circuit is un-likely to trip.
So if David had said an RCD may not work if some touches a live conductor while indoors then in many situations that statement would be correct.
David you need to be more detailed in your comments and observations.
Hi Bernard,
It's nice to hear a thoughtful comment for a change.
If you take off your shoes, lift up the carpet and stand on floorboards, then remove a socket front and put the back of your finger on an energised circuit conductor upstairs in your house. Believe me, the current doesn't just go up your arm, it is in fact just as painful as any other shock.
You sound like a nice bloke so just take it from me don't try it yourself.
It's nice to hear a thoughtful comment for a change.
If you take off your shoes, lift up the carpet and stand on floorboards, then remove a socket front and put the back of your finger on an energised circuit conductor upstairs in your house. Believe me, the current doesn't just go up your arm, it is in fact just as painful as any other shock.
You sound like a nice bloke so just take it from me don't try it yourself.
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