A cockup waiting to happen................

[Lincsbodger]

Yea but the scaling down option will kill us equally as well.

the point is no matter how miserly we are with our energy, if we stay on this planet we will run out. Thats what scaling down is - cutting technology = staying here = extinction.

The better solution long term is we invent a way to get off this planet and spread ourselves across the galaxy. Thats means more technology, not less.

True enough but I only said to scale back our energy consumption not scale back our attempts to develope our energy prodcution.
We'll never get off this planet when we are more concerned about ensuring bananas are available all year round, being able to cut our dinner up without doing it manually and taking holidays all over the globe at a whim.Our government is having a war on financial waste, it's not a huge step to have a war on energy waste.

Yes, fair point.

However, if we get fusion power cracking, the net cost of energy with scale down a hundredfold, so it will become irrelevant to conserve it.

 

[Lincsbodger]

The universe behaves as it does due to immutable laws that allow it to do so. The laws of science are simple observations of that universe in action.
It matters not what we are capable of comprehending at any one time - the laws still govern us. If they didn't - the universe would be a different place with a different set of laws.

True, but we dont know all the laws, not by a long chalk, and we dont know which of our theories are right and wrong. We are a long long way from being able to explain everything, and the more we understand, the more we can do. The secret of faster than light travel may well lay in science we have not yet even glimpsed or theorised about - ive already pointed out Quantum Gravity as a possible area, so is Twistor Theory and String Theory.

Put yourself in the 13th century. Your knowledge of physical laws then would make our world look like magic to you. In 1000 years we will be in the same infantile state to the people of 3000 AD, who will be vastly advanced to us. And you cant even begin to guess what they might know.

 

[joe-90]

The universe behaves as it does due to immutable laws that allow it to do so. The laws of science are simple observations of that universe in action.
It matters not what we are capable of comprehending at any one time - the laws still govern us. If they didn't - the universe would be a different place with a different set of laws.

True, but we dont know all the laws, not by a long chalk, and we dont know which of our theories are right and wrong. We are a long long way from being able to explain everything, and the more we understand, the more we can do. The secret of faster than light travel may well lay in science we have not yet even glimpsed or theorised about - ive already pointed out Quantum Gravity as a possible area, so is Twistor Theory and String Theory.

Put yourself in the 13th century. Your knowledge of physical laws then would make our world look like magic to you. In 1000 years we will be in the same infantile state to the people of 3000 AD, who will be vastly advanced to us. And you cant even begin to guess what they might know.

Yes but the point is that in the past thousand years, though we've made progress, we've broken no law of science. Not one. So we won't in the next thousand either - and that's what we'd have to do to colonise the universe.

 

[Lincsbodger]

The universe behaves as it does due to immutable laws that allow it to do so. The laws of science are simple observations of that universe in action.
It matters not what we are capable of comprehending at any one time - the laws still govern us. If they didn't - the universe would be a different place with a different set of laws.

True, but we dont know all the laws, not by a long chalk, and we dont know which of our theories are right and wrong. We are a long long way from being able to explain everything, and the more we understand, the more we can do. The secret of faster than light travel may well lay in science we have not yet even glimpsed or theorised about - ive already pointed out Quantum Gravity as a possible area, so is Twistor Theory and String Theory.

Put yourself in the 13th century. Your knowledge of physical laws then would make our world look like magic to you. In 1000 years we will be in the same infantile state to the people of 3000 AD, who will be vastly advanced to us. And you cant even begin to guess what they might know.

Yes but the point is that in the past thousand years, though we've made progress, we've broken no law of science. Not one. So we won't in the next thousand either - and that's what we'd have to do to colonise the universe.

no we havent 'broken any laws' - thats because you cant break physical laws. But in the last 1000 years we've discovered thousands of physical laws and advanced in ability with our new knowledge of laws accordingly. And will continue into the future, learning new laws and science, enabling us to do stuff we cant do now or think is impossible now, because we dont know how to do it, because we dont know the science and the laws behind the science!!

 

[Whitespirit66]

One of the problems with this topic is that no one ever has the guts to suggest that maybe just maybe we should be thinking of trying to reduce what we use rather than simply looking at how to keep generating more and more.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that The UK has a rapidly growing population, due to 'New' Labour's insane immigration policy, and these new immigrants are breeding like flies. We have grown in population by several millions (plus the hidden million or two) since Labour came to power.

What's the point of us saving energy, which will kill the economy, if governments are packing more and more people into this crowded isle? You're wasting your time, as all these extra people consume lots more energy and resources.

If we drastically cut our energy consumption, which will dramatically reduce the economic output and performance of The UK, what will you use to feed, clothe and house all these extra people who have now become our liability, plus the indigenous population?

 

[joe-90]

no we havent 'broken any laws' - thats because you cant break physical laws.

And that means we are stuck on this planet as the Laws of Science won't let us get off it. That's because you can't break physical laws.

 

[sooey]

Beam me up Scotty.

 

[Lincsbodger]

no we havent 'broken any laws' - thats because you cant break physical laws.

And that means we are stuck on this planet as the Laws of Science won't let us get off it. That's because you can't break physical laws.

yeah, were going round in circles now joe, whatever...........as ive said before, you obviously have access to a time machine and can see the future, although it was a bit off on your predictions about the general election...........we'll leave it at that.

 

[joe-90]

We aren't going in circles. The Laws of Science are laws. We can understand them better - but we can't break them. That's all there is to it.

 

[Lincsbodger]

We aren't going in circles. The Laws of Science are laws. We can understand them better - but we can't break them. That's all there is to it.

And of course you can see into the future, and predict all the future inventions, discoveries, new technologies, and currently unknown science and unknown technology to come.......

 

[joe-90]

I don't need to see into the future. The Laws of Science are the laws our Universe operates on. All we've done is observe them. If they were breakable the Universe wouldn't exist. Get over it - you are simply wrong.

 

[Lincsbodger]

I don't need to see into the future. The Laws of Science are the laws our Universe operates on. All we've done is observe them. If they were breakable the Universe wouldn't exist. Get over it - you are simply wrong.

And you can see into the future and confidently predict that at no point ever will we achieve space flight to other stars? Despite the fact we've been to the moon, going back to the moon and will be going to Mars, ie we've already set out on that path ?

If you could induce metabolic statis in a human (already done with mice and similar to coma's), and drive there space ship with ion engines (already on the drawing board for Mars) , you could get to the nearest stars . Exactly what laws does this break, joe ?

Go and read this, joe, theres plenty of current technology will get us to the stars, no one is breaking any physical laws to do it.

http://www.physorg.com/news8817.html

 

[snico]

I don't need to see into the future. The Laws of Science are the laws our Universe operates on. All we've done is observe them. If they were breakable the Universe wouldn't exist. Get over it - you are simply wrong.

And you can see into the future and confidently predict that at no point ever will we achieve space flight to other stars? Despite the fact we've been to the moon, going back to the moon and will be going to Mars, ie we've already set out on that path ?

If you could induce metabolic statis in a human (already done with mice and similar to coma's), and drive there space ship with ion engines (already on the drawing board for Mars) , you could get to the nearest stars . Exactly what laws does this break, joe ?

I dont think that it ever going to be possible is it?

Our nearest star, Proxima Centauri, is over 4 light years away...so to get there it will be an 8 year round trip at the speed of light. Speed of light is almost 700 million mph....if we travel at the speed our fastest spacecrafts have ever travelled, it will take almost 20 000 years to get there

I agree that no one knows how advanced technology will be in the future, but I think that sort of trip is for sci-fi films only.........but who knows!

 

[Lincsbodger]

Light sails + fusions engines look good, shoudl be able to get 0.7 - 0.8 c with that combo. I suspect the first trips will be similar to the Mayflower voyage, ie no one expected them to come back.

I think the first extraterrestrial colonisers woudl not expect to return, but set up a permanent colony and stay there.

 

[Space cat]

And that means we are stuck on this planet as the Laws of Science won't let us get off it.

I'm not aware of any law of science that says we can't get off this planet. .

There's a law that says that energy can't be created out of nothing. It's sometime disputed, wrongly, with the counter claim that you can get energy out of mass. It's already in there, trapped in some way inside a nucleus, just like the energy inside a TNT molecule or a compressed spring. If you released a compressed spring, I'd be very surprized if its mass didn't go down.

There's another law that says disorder is always increasing. That's because there are many, many more disordered states than ordered ones. Anybody who regularly cleans a house full of teenagers knows that one.

There's a law that says that a massive particle cannot be accelerated beyond the speed of light because its momentum (NOT its mass) would become infinite. That one may be true except for one thing; it's possible that gravity alone might accelerate a massive particle through the light barrier. We will only be able to test this theory when we figure out how to generate gravity to order - and I'm not holding my breath. I suspect that the so-called weakest known force will prove to be the toughest nut to crack.

But the Starship Enterprise doesn't travel faster than light. It travels at sub-light speed through compressed - that is to say warped - space and that's theoretically possible, though the energy requirements are extreme.

Sorry Joe. You're right about oil running out. There's also an outside chance that we are heading into Mad Max territory, but I'm going to side with Lincsbodger on this one. I used to hear people predicting disaster back in the sixties. If it wasn't CND warning us about nuclear armageddon, it was the likes of Mary Whitehouse telling us that we were all going to HELL! We humans are nothing if not resourceful - and we're still here.