air vent type?

[adiwill]

thanks giblets.. thats a good piece of advice. I'll follow it up.

But , regarding the cat thing, the quote you gave still doesnt suggest that there are potential problems with cats on fires, only that there are problems with fires themselves.

 

[Dan Robinson]

No implication of the sought - merely that cats in fires are new technology, and nobody really knows how long they will perform over the years.

They may have passed several tests. A certain boiler manufacturer that will be outed fairly soon has problems with their mounting brackets. These passed tests.

The Suprima 120 passed tests, yet the early models were blowing themselves off walls.

The first run of BMW Mini's were tested, yet their filler caps sparked when you put a fuel nozzel in them.

My customer database went through thorough tests, but it fell over after a few months.

Scaremongering is not an accurate description of most the posts; certainly not mine. But you asked for facts. We gave you our experience. As we are not impartial test centres that is all we have. But I can promise you this; test beds and the real world have squat all in common. Just look at the SEDBUK database for that. Some of us have seen the effects of CO poisening first hand. Granted they have been through other means. But you have the grand assumption that you will remember to service and maintain your appliance even if you sell the property. Remember we as installers have to assume that somethnig will change hence the requirement for permanent purtpose provided ventilation. The original purpose of this thread.

But then you obviously know far more about heating appliances than you let on; so who are we to question you? After all we only work in this industry.

You're still welcome though.

 

[adiwill]

There's a 14 year old girl who is no longer alive because the cat failed on the new fire in her home.
Noone on here is interested in cats on cars, were gas installers.
Do you work for focal point? cos if you do you're wasting your time.

if thats a legitimate story, then i'll take that as one example.Thats what i was after in the first place... examples of a cat failing on a flueless fire, and not examples of installation or manufacturing errors.


Of course i dont work for focalpoint.. i got asked about what fire it was, not the other way round.

 

[adiwill]

No implication of the sought - merely that cats in fires are new technology, and nobody really knows how long they will perform over the years.

They may have passed several tests. A certain boiler manufacturer that will be outed fairly soon has problems with their mounting brackets. These passed tests.

thanks dan, again a useful post.

 

[doyle]

The way I understood the cwmbran incident was that the fire was left overgassed, this caused the cat to soot up and prevented the combustion products from coming into contact with the surface of the cat. As I understand it this thing is supposed to convert co to co2, to do this the co has to contact the surface of the cat, which it can't do when it's full of soot. The fire in wales only took a few months to soot up although it was well overgassed, now as we all know an awful lot of people never have their appliances serviced, so what will happen to a flueless fire that is slightly overgassed for say 7 or 8 years. Most people on here think it's a knocking bet that the cat will soot up eventually, which means that in a few years time there may be people dying with these things. Thats my take on it anyway and I wouldn't fit one for a big clock.

exactly suey i said that in earlier post and also suggested that the cat would not cope with the extra demand through normal ware and tear carbon on burner etc.

but the guy doesnt want to know that, he might not recognise when it needs attention but his next of kin will when the police come a knockin.

even though lack of experience is evident with myself training providers do highlight the case involving flueless fire and recomend not to bother with them.

 

[sooey]

Thats what i was after in the first place... examples of a cat failing on a flueless fire, and not examples of installation or manufacturing errors.

That particular incident was because of a manufacturer and installer error, but the point is that most on here myself included think that the same fault will occur over a longer period of time simply because of neglect. Or given that these things don't have their own regulator, because of a faulty meter regulator causing it to become overgassed.
I still reckon you must work for focal point to come on here and argue the toss so strongly for them.

 

[giblets]

Another interesting point from the report I linked to earlier is this:

Three manufacturers are currently offering a range of flueless fires, and their installation instructions are inconsistent with one another. They specify different requirements for fixed ventilation area and minimum room size, which are also below the minimum required by BS 5440: Part 2

TBH that statement in itself is enough to set alarms ringing in my simple brain.

If the manufacturers themselves can't agree then what chance does anyone else have?

 

[doyle]

the death posted earlier was due to an incorrect fitting or manufacturing error, and therefore NOT directly a failure of the cat during everyday use, which is what you're all implying that these fires are prone to.

you're clutching at straws now..

certainly not wrong fitting otherwise mfr would have been prosecuted
appliance confirmed to you by other members as over gassed.

i will try and put in clear and simple terms to you now and you tell me whether you think it is a safe fire.

what will happen if anything goes wrong
a/ live
b/ die

what will happen if a conventional fire goes wrong
a/ live
b/die

whats the value of your life
a/ price of a b&q flueless gas fire
b/ priceless as nhs and local gov will have to pay for your up keep
c/ 1 yrs free membership on diynot funeral forum

 

[fumb]

How many CATS fail discounting those caused by engine failures?

A good point well made and true enough

How many do fail due to engine problems though?
My car ate 2 CATs when a simple known comsumable part (O2 sensor) went bad. It cost me a shed load of money. If I'd parked it in the lounge it would not have cost ME anything I suppose...
Are you really that sure there isn't something similar lurking in your gas fire?

How many of the posts on this forum are the result of a boiler which is malfunctioning in one way or another?
How many issues are there caused by incorrect comissioning of a boiler by unregistered installers
Your installation has been classed as potentially dangerous by a number of RGIs on this forum. Does that not leave you wondering just a little about the quality of the guy who fitted it?

If you are 100% convinced it's safe why are you even considering wasting your money on a CO detector anyway?

 

[Dan Robinson]

Isn't logic subjective.

If I had half a dozen independent (most not knowing each other outside this forum) professionals offering nearly identical reasons (all beit anecdotal) based on years of experience and passion for a trade on particular subject, using several wide ranging examples of how facts can be brought from anywhere and used to a purpose; I would be listneing a little more closely.

Who was it that said:

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

In my book experience counts for a lot more than facts from biased test centres.

The more I read this thread the more I think Adiwill works for a fire maunfacturer and bit off a little more than he can chew - wouldn't be the first time.

 

[namsag]

Going along the lines of what can affect the CAT, in testing houses all appliances are fitted in perfect conditions I doubt any are fitted on lead pipe, a tiny bit of lead into a car cat will destroy it.
So gas passing though lead pipes on meter inlet and outlet picks up tiny particle of lead from the internal surface of the pipes and carries this to the appliance to then be involved in the combustion process and thus pass through the cat.
Agree it`s only minute particles but over a period of 15/20 years how is it going to affect the cat. I don`t know and when asked no one else will say becaue they have not tested this scenario.

From what i hear of the death part of the problem was the vent was fitted at low level close to the fire and the draft from it stopped the ASD working corectly and they are on about changing vent speck that they should be fitted at high level.

EDIT
In reply to Dans comments of who would fit these in my area 20 of us worked for BG with experience from 20 years to 45 years . Flueless fires are not new (main ripon 30 years ago) we even had portable gas fires that where fitted on a flex and moved from room to room.
So we have all either installed them or serviced in the past , But would we install these new higher output appliances being used in airtight modern houses knowing what we have learnt over the years the answer is 100% NO.

 

[doyle]

adiwil surely must have picked up on the general concept by now.

i agree such a stand off to defend is somewhat questionable but it has lead to a great debate.

if he does work for a fire manufactor then he should take note.

galaxy comet living flame production ended after to many was condemed as dangerous, this was several years after being passed as safe to use in uk meeting all requirements.
i beleive the company entity do not exist removing any financial obligations and also legal obligations in event that any of the remaining used fires kill.

i know ive still got mine sat in living room outa commission.

the design fault was within the two panels, that can soot up and block it up leaving poc commign through convector.

this fire was sold in large volume for at least three years prior, so as you can appreciate if all rgi agree to fit then teh market could becoem saturated with nasties makign rich men rich who will then fold the ltd companies and have no legal or moral obligations.no come back what so ever, whilst the poor fitter cops teh blame and the burdens for all and sundry.

youve bougth your fire if your happy then keep it but dont expect anyoen to say yes its safe, when all else could break loose with it.
your teh only one looking at it, we aint their so we cant say its safe especailly if members feel there is unacceptable or unecessary risk.

 

[adiwill]

yes agreed.. and honestly, i dont work for a manufacturer. Im actually an ex sound engineer and now work as a search engine specialist. I work on a lot of cars in my spare time and run a technical owners club.. hence why i know a bit about cats.

BUT i do like to research things thoroughly.. i was given stories of how these fires are dangerous due directly to the cats failing.. when the fact of the matter is that thats just rubbish.
From what people have said on here, the underlying problem has been the fire, and not the cat. There is one example of a cat sooting up, but this could take years apparently.. and any sensible person would have them inspected during this time period anyway. If they dont, well yes then thats asking for trouble.

I'd already said i'm going to get it serviced and insepcted regularly, i've already said i'll get the vent sorted properly. And i will be making sure that all readings are in spec before i use it.
So, that just leaves the cat failing of its own accord due to melting or disintegration, which, as i've already stated, just doesnt happen without significant outside influences, ones which a gas fire simply cannot create.

So, yes, i'll be using the fire.. but yes, i'll get the checks done.

Ps no it didnt come from B+Q, i got it from a gas fire showroom, who incidentally had several of these things buring away when i was walking round.

 

[doyle]

what you must remeber adi is that not are sensible enough to have services done adn that factory settings cannot be relied upon with them, like others in ere i like to be able to rust the kit that im working on and these fires certainly shed doubts, when people have doubts they leave it well alone same as you would with a used car sales man.

hopefully you have taken on board that there are lots of people with lots of doubt and that you should never take it for granted as being ok if somethign doesnt seem quiet right further down the line.

 

[adiwill]

yes of course, but what annoyed me was the fact that everyone came on and said these are highly dangerous because the cats fail and the room fills with dangerous gases, when there is in fact very very little, if any, evidence to support this.