Am I allowed to open boilers?

[matt1e]

Matt, if you did that and timer called for CH or HW to heat the cylinder(remember it will be a full programmer) and the boiler is switched off at the front panel to service or fault find, part of the circuit within the boiler will be live due to the orange wire being 'hot' Accidental contact will be

no it wont DP terminal 1 is isolated via the front panel switch anyway,
thats why you feed the boiler first then feed the wiring centre and therefore eveything else from teminal 1
it also means that all external wiring is disconnected while resetting

Matt

 

[gasbanni]

Original Posts Question.

Had this out with what was Corgi (you gotta understand mate we talk about this here ! no answer ! ) put me on to HSE, then the Hse (rubbish answer at the time !) and finally they put me on to someone who had a part in putting the gas regs together when they couldnt answer my questions.

A mate was doing exactly what you described in your question, which without question is performing work on a gas appliance ( for the purposes of the regs a appliance is classed as a gas fitting)

The gas regs are quite specific: definition of a fitting ~ this can be a boiler
definition of work ~ what your doing (taking the cover off even if its not part of the combustion chamber)

So if you perform work on a gas fitting you need to be competent and finally after any work has been done the gas fitting has to be left safe to be used. All referenced in the regs.

The hse went on about not breaking in to gas pathways and that includes the combustion chamber cover (this specific scenario isn't in the regs by the way) however if you changed a pcb which does not included gas pathways how could you check its working properly even though its not specifically connected to the gas ! without breaking in to the gas train to check the burners modulating for instance ?

The answer I received was this "We didn't want to put any further burden on gas fitters re electrical training "
So I said " what abou..."
"I know exactly what your going to say regulation ( He quoted it!cant be arsed to look it up now about) about leaving it safe for use !"

The definitive answer : when a legal precedent is made by some poor sod doing what your doing and there's a major incident it results in a court case which will then give us a legal precedent !!!!!

A bit late in my opinion and some poor sod at some point in time is going to cop it !

So to get this answer at the time the Hse put me in touch with one of the authors of the gas regs not see or read anything different up to the present this was maybe five or six years ago could have been longer as time is whizzing by.

 

[gasbanni]

the switch on the front of the boiler is not there to kill power for you to work on it

Sorry Mickyg, you have lost me there. HOW do you fault a boiler and controls with the power switched off at the isolator. Do you know for a fact that the isolator (which is a two pole isolator) on front of the 105e does not have the contact clearance required for isolation?

Thats why your supposed to fit a fused spur/plug/dp isolator for positive isolation when working on boilers

Same argument here. Positive isolation made but no power at the boiler so what do you do to locate an electrical/ wiring fault? Only safe form of isolation I know is an unswitched socket where the plug is pulled to isolate. It is not the first time nor will it be the last that I will not encounter a spur unit with a switching fault.

100% agree Danny, un-switch socket & plug is the only way to safely isolate the power supply.
Do you work for BG Micky? Some interesting photos in your album mate.

Perhaps you should confirm that you have a cylinder being heated by your 105e Danny? Wee clue there by the way.

Boilers on plugs

 

[DeltaT2]

the switch on the front of the boiler is not there to kill power for you to work on it

Sorry Mickyg, you have lost me there. HOW do you fault a boiler and controls with the power switched off at the isolator. Do you know for a fact that the isolator (which is a two pole isolator) on front of the 105e does not have the contact clearance required for isolation?

Thats why your supposed to fit a fused spur/plug/dp isolator for positive isolation when working on boilers

Same argument here. Positive isolation made but no power at the boiler so what do you do to locate an electrical/ wiring fault? Only safe form of isolation I know is an unswitched socket where the plug is pulled to isolate. It is not the first time nor will it be the last that I will not encounter a spur unit with a switching fault.

100% agree Danny, un-switch socket & plug is the only way to safely isolate the power supply.
Do you work for BG Micky? Some interesting photos in your album mate.

Perhaps you should confirm that you have a cylinder being heated by your 105e Danny? Wee clue there by the way.

Boilers on plugs

Perfectly acceptable & the safest way to connect Central Heating control systems.
Unless you can prove otherwise matey??

 

[DeltaT2]

Matt, if you did that and timer called for CH or HW to heat the cylinder(remember it will be a full programmer) and the boiler is switched off at the front panel to service or fault find, part of the circuit within the boiler will be live due to the orange wire being 'hot' Accidental contact will be

no it wont DP terminal is isolated via the front panel switch anyway thats why you feed the boiler first then feed the wiring centre and therefore eveything else from teminal 1
it also means that all external wiring is disconected while resetting

Matt

Go on bonny lad, post up one of your 'paint by numbers' schematics & we'll see if you really know your onions.............

Remember the type of Relay SPST or DPDT............Oops!! there's another wee clue given, sorry Danny............

I hope Kirk's CC/CCCs are following this thread, so they can get up to speed - before being released on the un-suspecting Scottish public.......

 

[DeltaT2]

Original Posts Question.

Had this out with what was Corgi (you gotta understand mate we talk about this here ! no answer ! ) put me on to HSE, then the Hse (rubbish answer at the time !) and finally they put me on to someone who had a part in putting the gas regs together when they couldnt answer my questions.

A mate was doing exactly what you described in your question, which without question is performing work on a gas appliance ( for the purposes of the regs a appliance is classed as a gas fitting)

The gas regs are quite specific: definition of a fitting ~ this can be a boiler
definition of work ~ what your doing (taking the cover off even if its not part of the combustion chamber)

So if you perform work on a gas fitting you need to be competent and finally after any work has been done the gas fitting has to be left safe to be used. All referenced in the regs.

The hse went on about not breaking in to gas pathways and that includes the combustion chamber cover (this specific scenario isn't in the regs by the way) however if you changed a pcb which does not included gas pathways how could you check its working properly even though its not specifically connected to the gas ! without breaking in to the gas train to check the burners modulating for instance ?

The answer I received was this "We didn't want to put any further burden on gas fitters re electrical training "
So I said " what abou..."
"I know exactly what your going to say regulation ( He quoted it!cant be a***d to look it up now about) about leaving it safe for use !"

The definitive answer : when a legal precedent is made by some poor s** doing what your doing and there's a major incident it results in a court case which will then give us a legal precedent !!!!!

A bit late in my opinion and some poor s** at some point in time is going to cop it !

So to get this answer at the time the Hse put me in touch with one of the authors of the gas regs not see or read anything different up to the present this was maybe five or six years ago could have been longer as time is whizzing by.

So there you have it RF(20watt bulb)Lighting, the Jury is still out, unless you've CO someone & you're not telling us??

 

[matt1e]

the switch on the front of the boiler is not there to kill power for you to work on it

Sorry Mickyg, you have lost me there. HOW do you fault a boiler and controls with the power switched off at the isolator. Do you know for a fact that the isolator (which is a two pole isolator) on front of the 105e does not have the contact clearance required for isolation?

Thats why your supposed to fit a fused spur/plug/dp isolator for positive isolation when working on boilers

Same argument here. Positive isolation made but no power at the boiler so what do you do to locate an electrical/ wiring fault? Only safe form of isolation I know is an unswitched socket where the plug is pulled to isolate. It is not the first time nor will it be the last that I will not encounter a spur unit with a switching fault.

I agree with you here DP on both counts (mostly)

Delta, I will do a diagram when I get in if you are a good lad
may be late on though as "I'm gannin oot " tonight

Matt

 

[DeltaT2]

the switch on the front of the boiler is not there to kill power for you to work on it

Sorry Mickyg, you have lost me there. HOW do you fault a boiler and controls with the power switched off at the isolator. Do you know for a fact that the isolator (which is a two pole isolator) on front of the 105e does not have the contact clearance required for isolation?

Thats why your supposed to fit a fused spur/plug/dp isolator for positive isolation when working on boilers

Same argument here. Positive isolation made but no power at the boiler so what do you do to locate an electrical/ wiring fault? Only safe form of isolation I know is an unswitched socket where the plug is pulled to isolate. It is not the first time nor will it be the last that I will not encounter a spur unit with a switching fault.

I agree with you here DP on both counts

Delta, I will do a diagram when I get in if you are a good lad
may be late on though as "I'm gannin oot " tonight

Matt

Oh well, we can look forward to another masterpiece later then bonny lad. Can you please confirm it'll still be to such a high standard - as the others, after your copious consumption of three crates of Brown Ale?? Perhaps even better??

 

[matt1e]

Oh well, we can look forward to another masterpiece later then bonny lad. Can you please confirm it'll still be to such a high standard - as the others, after your copious consumption of three crates of Brown Ale?? Perhaps even better??

I doubt it mate, I seriously doubt it! I will be on the vodkas tonight as part of my beer intake diet

 

[DeltaT2]

Oh well, we can look forward to another masterpiece later then bonny lad. Can you please confirm it'll still be to such a high standard - as the others, after your copious consumption of three crates of Brown Ale?? Perhaps even better??

I doubt it mate, I seriously doubt it! I will be on the vodkas tonight as part of my beer intake diet

Have a good time mate...

 

[DP]

Matt wrote

no it wont DP terminal 1 is isolated via the front panel switch anyway,
thats why you feed the boiler first then feed the wiring centre and therefore eveything else from teminal 1
it also means that all external wiring is disconnected while resetting

Matt, L N &E from wiring center goes to boiler L N and E.

Where are you connecting the two channel programmer? Would it be wiring center that powers the programmer?

 

[matt1e]

Matt wrote

no it wont DP terminal 1 is isolated via the front panel switch anyway,
thats why you feed the boiler first then feed the wiring centre and therefore eveything else from teminal 1
it also means that all external wiring is disconnected while resetting

Matt, L N &E from wiring center goes to boiler L N and E.

Nope,you do it that way if you like, I wouldn't for reasons you have already given

Matt, if you did that and timer called for CH or HW to heat the cylinder(remember it will be a full programmer) and the boiler is switched off at the front panel to service or fault find, part of the circuit within the boiler will be live due to the orange wire being 'hot'

Where are you connecting the two channel programmer? Would it be wiring center that powers the programmer?

depends on the location of the programmer in relation to the wiring centre and boiler so maybe maybe not
but the the mains supply would always supply the boiler and the boiler in turn would supply the wiring centre via terminal 1 which incidently is a dedicated supply terminal for external controls

7. To connect external control(s) remove the link between terminals 1 & 2. The 230V supply at terminal 1 must be connected to the external control. Then switched output from the external control must be connected to terminal 2 (Fig. 29).

Matt

 

[DP]

Good on you Matt. Credit where credit is due- plenty RGI get caught out by powering the programmer from LN &E terminals on wiring center.

 

[RF Lighting]

Original Posts Question.

Had this out with what was Corgi (you gotta understand mate we talk about this here ! no answer ! ) put me on to HSE, then the Hse (rubbish answer at the time !) and finally they put me on to someone who had a part in putting the gas regs together when they couldnt answer my questions.

A mate was doing exactly what you described in your question, which without question is performing work on a gas appliance ( for the purposes of the regs a appliance is classed as a gas fitting)

The gas regs are quite specific: definition of a fitting ~ this can be a boiler
definition of work ~ what your doing (taking the cover off even if its not part of the combustion chamber)

So if you perform work on a gas fitting you need to be competent and finally after any work has been done the gas fitting has to be left safe to be used. All referenced in the regs.

The hse went on about not breaking in to gas pathways and that includes the combustion chamber cover (this specific scenario isn't in the regs by the way) however if you changed a pcb which does not included gas pathways how could you check its working properly even though its not specifically connected to the gas ! without breaking in to the gas train to check the burners modulating for instance ?

The answer I received was this "We didn't want to put any further burden on gas fitters re electrical training "
So I said " what abou..."
"I know exactly what your going to say regulation ( He quoted it!cant be a***d to look it up now about) about leaving it safe for use !"

The definitive answer : when a legal precedent is made by some poor s** doing what your doing and there's a major incident it results in a court case which will then give us a legal precedent !!!!!

A bit late in my opinion and some poor s** at some point in time is going to cop it !

So to get this answer at the time the Hse put me in touch with one of the authors of the gas regs not see or read anything different up to the present this was maybe five or six years ago could have been longer as time is whizzing by.

So there you have it RF(20watt bulb)Lighting, the Jury is still out, unless you've CO someone & you're not telling us??

Well it's been an interesting thread, and seems to be a real grey area. Another of those bits where trades overlap and no one from either side want's to responsibility.

I haven't CO'd anyone! I just got thinking about it after reading a thread somewhere on this site.

Thanks for all your inputs chaps, now feel free to carry on with your wiring arguments

 

[DeltaT2]

Original Posts Question.

Had this out with what was Corgi (you gotta understand mate we talk about this here ! no answer ! ) put me on to HSE, then the Hse (rubbish answer at the time !) and finally they put me on to someone who had a part in putting the gas regs together when they couldnt answer my questions.

A mate was doing exactly what you described in your question, which without question is performing work on a gas appliance ( for the purposes of the regs a appliance is classed as a gas fitting)

The gas regs are quite specific: definition of a fitting ~ this can be a boiler
definition of work ~ what your doing (taking the cover off even if its not part of the combustion chamber)

So if you perform work on a gas fitting you need to be competent and finally after any work has been done the gas fitting has to be left safe to be used. All referenced in the regs.

The hse went on about not breaking in to gas pathways and that includes the combustion chamber cover (this specific scenario isn't in the regs by the way) however if you changed a pcb which does not included gas pathways how could you check its working properly even though its not specifically connected to the gas ! without breaking in to the gas train to check the burners modulating for instance ?

The answer I received was this "We didn't want to put any further burden on gas fitters re electrical training "
So I said " what abou..."
"I know exactly what your going to say regulation ( He quoted it!cant be a***d to look it up now about) about leaving it safe for use !"

The definitive answer : when a legal precedent is made by some poor s** doing what your doing and there's a major incident it results in a court case which will then give us a legal precedent !!!!!

A bit late in my opinion and some poor s** at some point in time is going to cop it !

So to get this answer at the time the Hse put me in touch with one of the authors of the gas regs not see or read anything different up to the present this was maybe five or six years ago could have been longer as time is whizzing by.

So there you have it RF(20watt bulb)Lighting, the Jury is still out, unless you've CO someone & you're not telling us??

Well it's been an interesting thread, and seems to be a real grey area. Another of those bits where trades overlap and no one from either side want's to responsibility.

I haven't CO'd anyone! I just got thinking about it after reading a thread somewhere on this site.

Thanks for all your inputs chaps, now feel free to carry on with your wiring arguments

Oh there's no debate mate, just leave us an un-switched 13amp socket within 1M of the boiler & the RGIs will take care of the technical stuff. There'll be flex flying everywhich way, but it'll all work.............