Bathroom Electrics

[Rosebery]

I fit bathrooms and invariably use a Part P sparks to do the electrics.

In the one I am doing right now the fan needs changing and the client has advised he wants to change the existing light/shaver socket for an illuminated bathroom cabinet (no shaver socket).

The fan is (only just) in Zone 2 wall mounted centered at 2.3 metres so the very bottom of the unit is within zone 1. Client has supplied an IPX4 fan to be fitted. The supply cable for the light / shaver socket is around 85 cm above the top of the basin and therefore out of zone 2. However the bottom half of the new cab will be in Zone 2.

AFAIK the work is replacement of existing and therefore there is no notification requirement. Also I think I'm right in saying that as its a replacement there is no need to RCD protect the circuit nor fit a 3 pole isolator under the 17th as the circuit doesn't change. Both are on the lighting circuit BTW. Also I'm sure an MWC is also not required although probably it would be advisable. Now I am not qualified to do the necessary tests for an MWC and so wouldn't undertake doing one.

Client has done some research and argues that because its a direct replacement then there is no need for Part P and wants me to do the work as he doesn't want to fork out for an electrician. Whilst I share the view (although haven't admitted it) that notification under Part P does not apply the rub is that this is a rental property and I'm concerned that I could be dropping myself in it big time if I go along with it.

Some advise please both in respect of the 17th and Part P.

Thanks

Oh and BTW theres no supp bonding on the existing pipework either!

 

[sparkyspike]

Part P and the 17th edition still apply, regardless of whether this work is notifiable. Whether this is notifiable work is arguable.

Does this cabinet light have a built in switch and if so is it a push switch, a pull cord or a motion sensor/touch sensor? What I'm getting at, is will you need to change what is currently a permanent live to a switched live?

The other things to consider - which is what an electrician would consider - would be the supplementary bonding and/or RCD protection and the isolator switch for the fan.

 

[Rosebery]

Whether this is notifiable work is arguable.

Yes thats what i'm driving at and why I seek advice.

Does this cabinet light have a built in switch and if so is it a push switch, a pull cord or a motion sensor/touch sensor? What I'm getting at, is will you need to change what is currently a permanent live to a switched live?"

Pull cord - just like the existing light.

"The other things to consider - which is what an electrician would consider - would be the supplementary bonding and/or RCD protection and the isolator switch for the fan.

Yes I raised these items precisely because I have considered them and am seeking advice please.

Thanks.

 

[sparkyspike]

Ok.

To fit a cabinet instead of a shaver point wouldn't be notifiable, as you are not altering the circuit (which is why I asked about the switch).

You won't necessarily have to fit an RCD to this circuit. If you decide that there is a risk concerning exposed metal pipework, then you may consider fitting an RCD and/or improving the bonding.

If you decide to alter the bonding arrangements, then this would be notifiable work.

 

[ColJack]

bonding is NOT notifiable.. it even has it's own line in the building regs..

(e) installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding

 

[Rosebery]

Ok. If you decide to alter the bonding arrangements, then this would be notifiable work.

Well as the circuits aren't changing and therefore no RCD requirement (am I correct on this?) I think supplementary bonding should be put in place particularly as its a steel bath going in. Would you agree? As that on its own is notifiable thats probably my lever to get me mate Keith in for the whole lot.

To fit a cabinet instead of a shaver point wouldn't be notifiable, as you are not altering the circuit (which is why I asked about the switch).

Thats my (unqualified) view as well. Do you agree the same applies to the fan?

However, I'm concerned that the real ballbuster revolves around issuing a MWC or not seeing as its a rental property. What think you? Am I being over sensitive?

Thanks

 

[ColJack]

replacing the bath isn't notifiable either..

 

[securespark]

Is it a problem for you to issue a MWC?

 

[Rosebery]

replacing the bath isn't notifiable either..

Of course not . But as its steel shouldn't it be bonded?

 

[Rosebery]

Is it a problem for you to issue a MWC?

I'm not qualified to do the testing.

 

[ColJack]

yes it should be bonded, but bonding isn't notifiable..

he's not qualified and does not posess the test equipment to issue a MWC most likely..

 

[Rosebery]

yes it should be bonded, but bonding isn't notifiable..

Ta

he's not qualified and does not posess the test equipment to issue a MWC most likely..

Spot on! Don't think my multimeter counts and its been eons since it was calibrated.

 

[Taylortwocities]

IIRC you do not need to be qualified to issue an installation cert.

You should, however, be competent (whatever that means) and you sign the cert saying it conforms with BS7671.
The cert includes test results and you need the correct test equipment to be able to measure the results of the tests. (and competence to interpret them).

 

[Rosebery]

Thanks TTC thats the problem. How can I sign to say it conforms to Wiring regs if I'm not qualified to do so?

The thing I keep coming back to, though, is that this is a rental property with a sitting tenant. If there is no MWC at the end how does the landlord (my client) demonstrate his duty of care to his tenant. If I agree just to go ahead (theres nothing rocket science about any of this is there?) and it bites him on the bum later when someone asks to see the MWC or the guy doing his landlords safety cert says "this has changed since last time" who does he point the finger at - me! Just getting him to sign a disclaimer wouldn't help either.

 

[flameport]

The fan:
You are just replacing one fan with another. Not notifiable.
The location of the fan is not an issue either. As the fan is rated to IPX4, it can be installed in zone 1 or zone 2.

The cabinet:
There are no zones above basins/sinks, so unless the sink is very close to the bath (within 60cm), the cabinet will be outside of the zones. Although not replacement of the exact same item, it is still a replacement, you are not altering anything else. Not notifiable either.

The steel bath:
Steel baths do not require supplementary bonding, as they are not extraneous conductive parts.
If there is no supplementary bonding at all, this should be installed.

RCDs:
If this was a new install to the 17th edition, RCDs would be required for all circuits in the bathroom. However this is not a new install, but just replacement of a couple of items. RCDs not required.

Certificates:
A minor works certificate should be issued. However if you don't have any test equipment or knowledge of how to use it, you clearly can't do this.

Ultimately, if a certificate is required by the client, the only way is to get someone in to replace the fan, fit the cabinet and install supplementary bonding. However, this is minor work and would not cost very much either - 1 hour or 2 at the most?