boiler ventilation

[bonnanbuidhe]

am i missing something or is the current vent of 50% of required free area not 50% of what the manufacturer recommended? if so the boiler has always been "unsafe" but its only recently that the regs were changed to raise the classification to a potentially more serious one. quite rightly IMO. the HSE will probably have raised it due to a death or serious injury. can anyone think why the HSE would have a direct reason to get rid of old boilers? nonsense i think.

off the top of my head the definition of At Risk is a situation that could cause danger to life or property. it's the engineers opinion based on a particular regulation. if you don't agree with that engineers opinion then get another.

IIRC the 90% of free area figure is acceptable because it takes into account the possibility of measuring errors.

The current regulation ( 1st June 2008 ) requires 90% of the ventilation stipulated by the manufacturer.It was previously 50%.

If an engineer decides that an installation is AR, in this case if ventilation is less than 90% of the boiler manufacturer's recommendation, he should ask permission to turn the boiler off. At risk surely refers to the possibility of a problem at some unstated future time such that corrective action must be taken before the boiler is turned on again. It can hardly be a matter of opinion because a precise measurement is given. A registered engineer should have no problem checking this. Otherwise how many opinions do we need ? AR is not a matter of opinion; it is a failure of an installation to meet a required standard,

 

[nickso]

am i missing something or is the current vent of 50% of required free area not 50% of what the manufacturer recommended? if so the boiler has always been "unsafe" but its only recently that the regs were changed to raise the classification to a potentially more serious one. quite rightly IMO. the HSE will probably have raised it due to a death or serious injury. can anyone think why the HSE would have a direct reason to get rid of old boilers? nonsense i think.

off the top of my head the definition of At Risk is a situation that could cause danger to life or property. it's the engineers opinion based on a particular regulation. if you don't agree with that engineers opinion then get another.

IIRC the 90% of free area figure is acceptable because it takes into account the possibility of measuring errors.

The current regulation ( 1st June 2008 ) requires 90% of the ventilation stipulated by the manufacturer.It was previously 50%.

incorrect. if you currently have 50% and nothing has changed since installation then it has always been wrong. only after the HSE changed the classification has the real push by conscientious engineers to get the vent upgraded.

If an engineer decides that an installation is AR, in this case if ventilation is less than 90% of the boiler manufacturer's recommendation, he should ask permission to turn the boiler off. At risk surely refers to the possibility of a problem at some unstated future time such that corrective action must be taken before the boiler is turned on again. It can hardly be a matter of opinion because a precise measurement is given. A registered engineer should have no problem checking this. Otherwise how many opinions do we need ? AR is not a matter of opinion; it is a failure of an installation to meet a required standard,

again incorrect. i do not need to ask to turn off an AT Risk boiler. i turn it off and its the customers decision to turn it back on if they choose. the corrective action required should be noted on the paperwork given to the customer and also verbally advised.

in stating it was a matter of opinion i meant in the general context of an AR situation. in your case the ventilation is well below standard and is clearly AR. AR situations in general can often be grey areas and can quite often be a matter of opinion. ask ten men their opinion and like it or not you will get an argument about it as is often seen on this site. a regulation may be clear, its bearing on an actual installation may not. i'll admit its a difficult one to explain to a non RGI.



the 10% rule works in your favour by giving you the benefit of the doubt. if i were you i would complain about the level of service. there really is no excuse for not knowing how to measure a vent and it's subsequent classification. i doubt you will get far. upgrade your vent to the correct standard using another firm and bin the current firm.

 

[allyq]

nickso
GIUSP states for AR with the gas user or the responsible person's permission turn off the appliance.
6, 6.4, d

 

[vulcancontinental]

it should be noted that this AR classification is not always recognised by the courts , were ultimately any decision could or would be made , in a particular case I was involved with , the judge would not recognise the at risk scenario in his view it is either safe to use or not !

This is a good point for those coming across this situation.

Do you worry more about a prosecution in front of a judge or possibly over zealously ID a situation that the regs say is AR but the law may say isn't a defendable decision.

 

[transam]

it should be noted that this AR classification is not always recognised by the courts , were ultimately any decision could or would be made , in a particular case I was involved with , the judge would not recognise the at risk scenario in his view it is either safe to use or not !

This is a good point for those coming across this situation.

Do you worry more about a prosecution in front of a judge or possibly over zealously ID a situation that the regs say is AR but the law may say isn't a defendable decision.

cannot say I worry , but I got involved in a situation a while back , where an installer freind of mine ( since retired) was taken through the courts because he classified a boiler as at risk , I tried to assist him & it all went pear shaped he ended up paying out damages to the person in question !
Basically he rightly (as far as guidance notes were concerned ) classed a boiler as at risk , the woman of the house threw a panic contacted her husband who was in a buissness meeting , which he cancelled drove home ect to deal with his so called distraught wife , went to court for loss of earnings , cancelled meeting ect

No evidence was ever offered that disputed the ar , it all hinged on the following ' was the boiler dangerous ! if it was not than it was safe , in the words of the judge most trade type organisations are & I quote over zealous in there interpretation of the rules !!

Ultimately in these situations you are on your own , corgi(at the time)ect do not want to know !you are in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation ?? fella concerned retired early soon after !!

than of course there are the fanned flue distances & checks that are a potential mine field waiting to catch someone out ??

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

am i missing something or is the current vent of 50% of required free area not 50% of what the manufacturer recommended? if so the boiler has always been "unsafe" but its only recently that the regs were changed to raise the classification to a potentially more serious one. quite rightly IMO. the HSE will probably have raised it due to a death or serious injury. can anyone think why the HSE would have a direct reason to get rid of old boilers? nonsense i think.

off the top of my head the definition of At Risk is a situation that could cause danger to life or property. it's the engineers opinion based on a particular regulation. if you don't agree with that engineers opinion then get another.

IIRC the 90% of free area figure is acceptable because it takes into account the possibility of measuring errors.

The current regulation ( 1st June 2008 ) requires 90% of the ventilation stipulated by the manufacturer.It was previously 50%.

incorrect. if you currently have 50% and nothing has changed since installation then it has always been wrong. only after the HSE changed the classification has the real push by conscientious engineers to get the vent upgraded.

If an engineer decides that an installation is AR, in this case if ventilation is less than 90% of the boiler manufacturer's recommendation, he should ask permission to turn the boiler off. At risk surely refers to the possibility of a problem at some unstated future time such that corrective action must be taken before the boiler is turned on again. It can hardly be a matter of opinion because a precise measurement is given. A registered engineer should have no problem checking this. Otherwise how many opinions do we need ? AR is not a matter of opinion; it is a failure of an installation to meet a required standard,

again incorrect. i do not need to ask to turn off an AT Risk boiler. i turn it off and its the customers decision to turn it back on if they choose. the corrective action required should be noted on the paperwork given to the customer and also verbally advised.

in stating it was a matter of opinion i meant in the general context of an AR situation. in your case the ventilation is well below standard and is clearly AR. AR situations in general can often be grey areas and can quite often be a matter of opinion. ask ten men their opinion and like it or not you will get an argument about it as is often seen on this site. a regulation may be clear, its bearing on an actual installation may not. i'll admit its a difficult one to explain to a non RGI.



the 10% rule works in your favour by giving you the benefit of the doubt. if i were you i would complain about the level of service. there really is no excuse for not knowing how to measure a vent and it's subsequent classification. i doubt you will get far. upgrade your vent to the correct standard using another firm and bin the current firm.

You appear not to be aware of the regulations. The following is taken from information I received from HSE Infoline Admin two days ago.

May 2005. " Any existing gas installations with below 40 per cent ( 0%to 39%) ventilationshould be deemed At Risk and the appliance should be turned off with the gas users permission........"

1st June 2008. " all installations providing less than 90% ventilation will be regarded as putting consumers AT Risk"

It follows that you are wrong to say that my boiler has always been unsafe.If you still think you are right, I suggest you contact HSE rather than shoot the messenger

 

[mysteryman]

What exactly do you want?

Advice - or just to be seen as cleverer than those who are trying to help you?

Get it updated and serviced annually.

If She Who Must Not Be Denied is really worried, scrap it and get a good quality room sealed boiler with weather compensation, and block the vents because you won't need them. You will save quite a bit on gas bills.

 

[petit_pablo]

Basically if it hasnt been 100% of the required ventilation, then its never been correct since day one.

The classification of undersized ventilation has been updated due to further research into the effects of inadequate ventilation.

Its wrong and always has been just no-ones bothered to tell you.

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

What exactly do you want?

Advice - or just to be seen as cleverer than those who are trying to help you?

Get it updated and serviced annually.

If She Who Must Not Be Denied is really worried, scrap it and get a good quality room sealed boiler with weather compensation, and block the vents because you won't need them. You will save quite a bit on gas bills.

I was seeking advice and have no wish to appear cleverer than those trying to help me. If that is your perception, I suggest you are a bit too sensitive on this occasion. You seem to be taking my remarks personally. If you read all the posts on my topic you will, I hope, agree that there is no consensus of opinion to guide me.

I only contacted the HSE a couple of days ago to get information from the horse's mouth so to speak. I assume their procedures are binding on all gas engineers; if not, it's difficult to see what the point of HSE is.

 

[mysteryman]

The consensus seems to me to be that you should get the ventilation brought up to current standards.

No reputable firm will wish to work on it otherwise.

A new boiler with weather comp really will save quite a bit, up to 30% cersus a floor standing cast iron boiler - it wasn't a facetious suggestion.

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

Basically if it hasnt been 100% of the required ventilation, then its never been correct since day one.

The classification of undersized ventilation has been updated due to further research into the effects of inadequate ventilation.

Its wrong and always has been just no-ones bothered to tell you.

It was passed as up to standard for the past 18 years by the people who are now telling me that it no longer conforms to the regulations. This is supported by the information I received from HSE. It;s a case of moving the goalposts I think. It is possible that standards 18 years ago were inadequate as you seem to suggest, and that `the changes I refer to were made in the light of practical experience in the field.

 

[allyq]

bonnanbuidhe
I think you should take note of mysteryman, what are you trying to gain here, my previous post plainly states the rules, there is no need for an unqualified individual posting and trying to 'trump' people with the correct knowledge

 

[petit_pablo]

It;s a case of moving the goalposts I think. It is possible that standards 18 years ago were inadequate as you seem to suggest, and that `the changes I refer to were made in the light of practical experience in the field.

Yes and no. The boiler installation instructions give the minimum ventilation required, so even 18 years ago it wasnt "correct". If it had been correct 18 years ago it would still be correct now.

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

The consensus seems to me to be that you should get the ventilation brought up to current standards.

No reputable firm will wish to work on it otherwise.

A new boiler with weather comp really will save quite a bit, up to 30% cersus a floor standing cast iron boiler - it wasn't a facetious suggestion.

Thank you for that. It never occurred to me that anyone was being facetious. I intend having additional ventilation fitted. I shall not be around long enough for a new boiler to pay for itself.

 

[bonnanbuidhe]

bonnanbuidhe
I think you should take note of mysteryman, what are you trying to gain here, my previous post plainly states the rules, there is no need for an unqualified individual posting and trying to 'trump' people with the correct knowledge

I am not trying to trump anyone. One thing is clear however and that is that not all the answers I received appeared to come from "people with the correct knowledge". How else would you explain the disparity among the answers I received. Why the objection to my correcting a view expressed by someone whose advice was contrary to that which I had from HSE ?I am not qualified as you say but at least I finally got the correct information from the horse's mouth. In this narrow context I am now a person with the correct knowledge. Give me credit for that much at least and stop being so arrogant.

Had I known of the existence of HSE earlier than I did I should not have posted on here at all.