Bungalow loft space 13 amp sockets & square footage cal

[jim2490]

Hi,

I have a bungalow with a loft space height at apex of approx. less than 6ft (as my bald head scars will testify).
I have measured out each ground floor room and come to an overall area of 75sq metres (a good overestimate). This calculation of the ground floor leads me to assume that my loft space is also 75sq metres.

I have a extra ring main running via the loft space to serve various outlets at ground floor level and would like to tap in and add a few 13amp sockets to the loft space as the cable is there and would be easy to do....... BUT.... there is the question of circuit square footage to overcome.

Would the loft be excluded from the calculations in the total circuit square footage? If it has to be added then it must be ruled out as the fact of merely adding a single socket would add 75sq metres to the circuit allowance.

I currently use a radial for tv and loft light but would prefer to tap into the 13 amp power circuits as there is no limit to total number of sockets (I believe) AND this would allow me to drop a few extra spurs to ground level and shorten the total cable run due to sockets needing a drop and return to complete the circuit.

Have searched but without success. Hope someone can put me right on this.
Cheers,Jim

 

[Spark123]

It isn't a reg as such, more to do with old rules of thumb. As long as your loading on the circuit isn't too much i.e. using multiple electrical heaters then I don't see a massive issue on the floor area served.

The circuit still needs to be designed to comply with the regs tho.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The historic 'rule of thumb' is 100 sq.m. but means very little.

After all, there is considerable difference in the cable required to supply a 10m x 10m area (40m) and a 100m x 1m (202m).

If the ring runs around the loft area anyway, adding sockets up there makes no difference,

 

[jim2490]

It isn't a reg as such, more to do with old rules of thumb. As long as your loading on the circuit isn't too much i.e. using multiple electrical heaters then I don't see a massive issue on the floor area served.

The circuit still needs to be designed to comply with the regs tho.

Thanks for that Spark125.
I am mindful of loading and I was intending to just have the sockets (unused - yes daft I know) to give me the scope for extra down drops (e.g - allow spurs equal to the number of sockets on the circuit calculation). I also planned to have a fcu at each down drop with a 13amp fuse to prevent overload.

As a matter of interest would a simple unused 30amp JB inserted in the loft circuit and dropped as a spur count as a socket? Silly question I know, but it is in theory the same three cable joint as a socket would be and much cheaper and there would be less chance of a future owner abusing the loft sockets - unless he was a cannabis user

 

[EFLImpudence]

Lots of bungalows were/are wired with a ring around the loft with each socket dropped as a spur from a junction box.
It would have made no difference had each of these junction boxes been a socket outlet.

I think you are worrying unnecessarily.

 

[jim2490]

Lots of bungalows were/are wired with a ring around the loft with each socket dropped as a spur from a junction box.
It would have made no difference had each of these junction boxes been a socket outlet.

I think you are worrying unnecessarily.

Thanks again for that info. There was me thinking these rules were set in stone and offenders punishable by death or something more serious I had no idea the rules were so flexible. I think you may have saved me a load of wasted cash on unnecessary sockets. Even if I do use JB's instead of sockets, I still plan to add an FCU to each drop as I am a belt and braces man. When you worry you worry, if it is in your nature. Best be legal and safe than sorry.
Cheers,
Jim.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Even if I do use JB's instead of sockets, I still plan to add an FCU to each drop as I am a belt and braces man.

In that case there will be no need for the junction boxes.
Just wire the ring to the FCU and drop to the sockets.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I wouldn't want to put FCUs up in a loft. That arangement may be fine for you, but when you come to sell the house, and a less than active person takes on the bungalow.
Will they want/be able to crawl into your low loft to go change fuses? Will they even know the FCU is up there.?

Just JB them. There will be a fuse in the plug in any case.

 

[securespark]

Thanks for that Spark125.

Add wiring up trains to your portfolio!!

 

[jim2490]

Even if I do use JB's instead of sockets, I still plan to add an FCU to each drop as I am a belt and braces man.

In that case there will be no need for the junction boxes.
Just wire the ring to the FCU and drop to the sockets.

Never come across this idea before, and with respect, I don't like the idea of inserting an FCU directly as part of a ring with the added hassle of getting 3 cables into the back. I find it bad enough getting two sets in.

Anyway, as I was starting to get a bit conFCUsed with the pros and cons, I have decided not to do the FCU for the spurs. Instead, I will add a couple of double sockets to loft to balance it out, do JB spur drops (marking the socket as a SPUR both for my info and future users, and remove a bit of excess cable on the down/return drops in the process. That should just about have it sorted.

Cheers.

 

[jim2490]

I wouldn't want to put FCUs up in a loft. That arangement may be fine for you, but when you come to sell the house, and a less than active person takes on the bungalow.
Will they want/be able to crawl into your low loft to go change fuses? Will they even know the FCU is up there.?

Just JB them. There will be a fuse in the plug in any case.

As already stated in a previous reply, I have weighed up pros and cons and decided on the JB method.

While I accept and take your valid point about "the next owner", this line of thought always grates on me. I will tell you why - I regard my home as my castle as I am sure many others do. It is bought and paid for. What I do to it is for our taste and convenience and NOT for the convenience of the next owner (admirable though that sentiment may be).

Let us face it, whenever anyone moves house they usually change everything in sight to suit their own preferences. Regarding electrics, if they have any sense and available cash they get a pir and then a part or full rewire if needed to suit their requirements.

As an aside, the imaginary next owner would have exactly the same type of access problem if the loft boiler pilot light failed (which it has done a few times). What do they do? If fit and capable they have a look, if not fit or capable, they call their favourite corgi man. Same response for general electrical problems they encounter.

Personally, I need not worry on that score. I am no spring chicken (over 70) but still fit and I have sorted the future of my property. It is already bequeathed in my Will to my niece. She is aware of her good fortune, and importantly, she is aware that she has to get a spark in to do whatever is required to ensure the property is safe. Sorted.

Thanks for your valued input.
Cheers,
Jim.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Never come across this idea before, and with respect, I don't like the idea of inserting an FCU directly as part of a ring with the added hassle of getting 3 cables into the back. I find it bad enough getting two sets in.

That's how it's done.
How else can something be supplied through an FCU? - without another unnecessary junction box and more unnecessary terminations.
It's not a problem but you wouldn't have three wires in each terminal, would you?
Also, as above, fuses in the loft could be inconvenient.

Anyway, as I was starting to get a bit conFCUsed with the pros and cons, I have decided not to do the FCU for the spurs. Instead, I will add a couple of double sockets to loft to balance it out,

It won't balance anything if they are not to be used.

do JB spur drops (marking the socket as a SPUR both for my info and future users, and remove a bit of excess cable on the down/return drops in the process.

A spur is a single cable down to the socket and as such will be instantly apparent to anyone in the future.
If you intend to drop two cables to maintain the ring then you will need two junction boxes or sockets and that will probably be pointless.

That should just about have it sorted.

Mmmm. I'm not so sure.
I think you are in danger of over-thinking the situation and so will end up with a bit of a bodge.

 

[jim2490]

Never come across this idea before, and with respect, I don't like the idea of inserting an FCU directly as part of a ring with the added hassle of getting 3 cables into the back. I find it bad enough getting two sets in.

That's how it's done.
How else can something be supplied through an FCU? - without another unnecessary junction box and more unnecessary terminations.
It's not a problem but you wouldn't have three wires in each terminal, would you?
Also, as above, fuses in the loft could be inconvenient.

Anyway, as I was starting to get a bit conFCUsed with the pros and cons, I have decided not to do the FCU for the spurs. Instead, I will add a couple of double sockets to loft to balance it out,

It won't balance anything if they are not to be used.

do JB spur drops (marking the socket as a SPUR both for my info and future users, and remove a bit of excess cable on the down/return drops in the process.

A spur is a single cable down to the socket and as such will be instantly apparent to anyone in the future.
If you intend to drop two cables to maintain the ring then you will need two junction boxes or sockets and that will probably be pointless.

That should just about have it sorted.

Mmmm. I'm not so sure.
I think you are in danger of over-thinking the situation and so will end up with a bit of a bodge.

EFLI - sorry about total quote, not proficient in cutting bits of quote out etc.

I think we may have got our wires/cables crossed here My thinking was :- Cut ring cable = 2 cables plus 1 cable for spur = 3 cables. The two ring cables to the live feed terminals and the spur cable to the load side (3 Cables in total)
.
Re balance - what I meant was adding was adding sockets just to make sure I was on the right side of the socket and % spur rule (just in case I was incorrectly advised (no offence) - (belt and braces job).

Re a possible bodge - I certainly hope not. My intention is quite the opposite and you may be surprised at my reason. Have you heard the term "getting your house in order"? Well that is just what I am doing or attempting to do. Having reached 70, I wake up each morning and I am just glad to be alive. Having regard to the electrical bits and pieces installed, mostly by me many moons ago, I am going through the house like a dose of salts to rectify, and improve on previous errors, bad practice and bodges purely so that I can leave my home to my niece in as good a spec as possible.

Now I could employ a tradesman to get things up to spec, but to be honest, I enjoy doing it, it is satisfying (as I am sure you sparks will concur) and it keeps me busy. I hate painting, and while I am working on electrics I don't get any hassle from the wife

I think that about puts my situation into perspective and I thank you for your valued input.

Regards,
Jim.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think we may have got our wires/cables crossed here My thinking was :- Cut ring cable = 2 cables plus 1 cable for spur = 3 cables. The two ring cables to the live feed terminals and the spur cable to the load side (3 Cables in total)

That's right.

Re balance - what I meant was adding was adding sockets just to make sure I was on the right side of the socket and 50% spur rule (just in case I was incorrectly advised (no offence) - (belt and braces job).

I think it's 'not more spurs than sockets' unless just folklore.
However, a ring in the loft and all sockets as spur drops from junction boxes (or sockets or FCUs (although FCUs are not really necessary)) is fine.

Re a possible bodge - I certainly hope not. My intention is quite the opposite and you may be surprised at my reason. Have you heard the term "getting your house in order"? Well that is just what I am doing or attempting to do. Having reached 70, I wake up each morning and I am just glad to be alive. Having regard to the electrical bits and pieces installed, mostly by me many moons age, I am going through the house like a dose of salts to rectify, and improve on previous errors, bad practice and bodges purely so that I can leave my home to my niece in as good a spec as possible.

I realise that but I thought you were on the way to over-engineering and having too many, and therefore unnecessary, joints.

Now I could employ a tradesman to get things up to spec, but to be honest, I enjoy doing it, it is satisfying (as I am sure you sparks will concur) and it keeps me busy. I hate painting, and while I am working on electrics I don't get any hassle from the wife

I agree about painting but it does make life seem longer.