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Have you ever seen a socket wired like that before?
Can You Believe This?
- Thread starter securespark
- Start date
No.
Nobody should be given, or follow, instructions to put-this-wire-in-that-hole so that they can do things without actually understanding why.
GENUINELY understanding.
The point should be to educate, to promote learning, new skills etc.
The 'Y' in 'DIY' stands for 'yourself', not "by some anonymous stranger on the internet because I don't understand what I'm doing"
If they cannot, or will not, learn about, and come to understand, the things they want to fiddle with then they should not fiddle, nor should they be encouraged or supported to do so.
No, but that's the sort of thing which can happen when the clueless fiddle with things they don't have a clue about.
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No, neither have I. Until that day. And nor have I seen anything like it since.
So, in 25+ years of being in the industry, I have seen one socket like that.
Ban, you're not DIYnot's resident Policeman.
Don't feel the need to stand guard, to be obstructive.
We try to guide most visitors in the right direction.
I guess you are going to claim you are offering nothing but help in the form of links to good reading etcetera.
But in reality, you scare many away.
Sadly, I can probably guess what your response to that will be too.
So, in 25+ years of being in the industry, I have seen one socket like that.
Ban, you're not DIYnot's resident Policeman.
Don't feel the need to stand guard, to be obstructive.
We try to guide most visitors in the right direction.
I guess you are going to claim you are offering nothing but help in the form of links to good reading etcetera.
But in reality, you scare many away.
Sadly, I can probably guess what your response to that will be too.
I've said it all before, but ... It is easy to sympathise with BAS's views and motives. However, if one feels like that, the only logical course would be to close this forum (and all others like it) and probably also campaign for the outlawing of all electrical work.
I don't see that BAS's approach will have a significant effect on DIY electrical work which is undertaken. It does, no doubt, result in a very few people being persuaded (usually very appropriately) to get an electrician in and not to do the DIY work. However, for those who continue to take the DIY approach, I can't believe that many of us can seriously believe that any appreciable number of people will go away and spend a long time studying and acquiring test equipment etc. before they change their light switch, install an extra socket or whatever. As you imply, more likely that they will just be 'scared off' (often more by BAS's style than by what he actually writes) and then just muddle through their DIY without any guidance.
BAS is by no means the only person here who sometimes says, suggests or implies that an OP does not have (and probably never will have) the knowledge and/or skill to undertake the work their are proposing or asking about - sometimes that is the only sensible advice that can be given. However, most others find a way of doing it which does not arouse the same reactions (and probably results) as he so often does.
As often discussed, there are dilemmas associated with giving advice on a forum like this, and each of us must make an individual personal decision about that. However, for those of us who decide that we do wish to answer some questions, and gives some advice, it makes sense that we should do so in a manner which (in reality) is of positive help to the OP.
Kind Regards, John
Probably "just read the words I have written, and not choose to invent things I have not written and then blame me because you don't like what you've chosen to invent"
Nonsense - the thing to do is to campaign for the acquisition of knowledge.
I don't really think that it needs a "long time" of studying to learn how switches work, or the difference between L/N/E etc.
Testing, of course, is always the elephant in the room, but every electrician who says that he always tests when he does <whatever>, and that to not do so is wrong, should be equally in favour of everyone testing, and equally of the opinion that it is wrong for anyone not to.
Very rarely do I do the latter.
Encouraging and assisting people to acquire the understanding of what they are doing is of positive help.
Giving them electrics-by-numbers instructions which they blindly follow without having a clue why is at best irresponsible, at worst dangerous.
That's probably a large percentage of "electricians" on the dole then
My experience is that a lot of "qualified" electricians do not genuinely understand the subject - they just follow a set of rules. Just picking a topic at random, I doubt if many electricians at all "genuinely understand" either how an RCD works or the physiological effects on the body of electric currents. They just follow a set of rules/guidelines/standards that says to fit "this type of device in this situation".Similarly, I doubt if many electricians understand the chemistry that comes into play when you subject various types of insulation to high temperatures - again, follow a set of rules/guidelines as to what type to use in different situations.
Getting back to the original post - I reckon if you asked a random sample of electricians WHY they put certain wires in certain holes, you'd get a lot of "umm" and "err" and "well that's how it has to be" (or words to that effect). Even more so for something more "complicated" like a 3 way light switch circuit.
I'm with the others, you need to assess each case on it's merits. You may be correct in your attitude, but the reality is that in many cases it's better to be flexible and persuade someone to take some help than to be inflexible and persuade them to never ask for help again. If someone "is going to do it" then telling them not to isn't helpful - trying to get them to do it in a more safe manner is.
As an aside, I have interests elsewhere. I've seen first hand how an industry that was highly protective of it's "secrets" led to DIY that was uninformed and often dangerous. Since then, things have opened up, information is much more readily available, and people can now do DIY with access to information on what the dangers are and how to mitigate them, as well as how things are supposed to work etc. In a parallel with electrical work - I've also seen some "professional" (and self certified) work that was "well below standard".
Quite so - although I imagine that, even today, the majority of electricians have learned enough 'rules' so as to be able to work pretty safely. However, many of us have bemoaned the fact that, compared with the past, there now seems to be much less emphasis on understanding of 'basic principles' (both of theory and practice) in the training/education of so many people these days, including many electricians.That's probably a large percentage of "electricians" on the dole then
In general, there isn't normally an expectation of those who fabricate, install or maintain things to have the level of knowledge or skills to be able to design them. Whether we're talking about cars, aircraft, bridges or whatever, one would not expect those who build and maintain them to have been able to design them, nor necessarily even to have very deep an understanding of 'how they work'.
Opinions/attitudes/approaches obviously vary but, as you will be aware, that is essentially my view.
Kind Regards, John
I much preferred Bas's example. If I read the photo correctly, the bus bar is all that holds the MCBs into position and both bus bar and outgoing lines were wired to the same terminal. Am I right ? Out of curiosity, exactly what are the holes in the back plate for that show each line wire coming through them
Genuine understanding of ...?
The circuit - yes
What components do within that circuit - yes
Safe working practices - yes
After that it becomes a problem, so, I'd suggest for example;
How components work - no
A few days ago someone posted asking for help understanding AC. Apart from ridiculing the username there were few replies. I wonder why? Certainly a few regulars explained why it was called AC and offered help, but there was not a single reply which explained how and why it worked. In truth it is a difficult concept and the understanding requires more than a little knowledge of physics.
It would not help someone wiring a socket if they understood the finer points of the theory. Indeed, they would probably be more capable and safer if they used the plumbing pressure & flow analogy even though it is not a true description of the way electrical energy moves.
It must be better to give simple ABC instructions to obtain a safe outcome rather than advise a poster with unknown manual or intellectual abilities to fully understand principles.
The circuit - yes
What components do within that circuit - yes
Safe working practices - yes
After that it becomes a problem, so, I'd suggest for example;
How components work - no
A few days ago someone posted asking for help understanding AC. Apart from ridiculing the username there were few replies. I wonder why? Certainly a few regulars explained why it was called AC and offered help, but there was not a single reply which explained how and why it worked. In truth it is a difficult concept and the understanding requires more than a little knowledge of physics.
It would not help someone wiring a socket if they understood the finer points of the theory. Indeed, they would probably be more capable and safer if they used the plumbing pressure & flow analogy even though it is not a true description of the way electrical energy moves.
It must be better to give simple ABC instructions to obtain a safe outcome rather than advise a poster with unknown manual or intellectual abilities to fully understand principles.
That's not quite true.
You, yourself linked to an explanation which was far more involved than even Eric or John would bother typing.
For a subject and question like that, exploring Google would seem to be far more productive which, it may be along with the username, led to the accusation of trolling.
This reminds me a little of Tenby sockets.
The (single, may be double as well) sockets in the 1980s looked the same as they did from about 1990 onwards, except for introducing the makers name on the front and putting a red stripe on the switches.
What they also did was reverse the live and neutral terminals.
Otherwise the back of the socket looked the same (though sometimes the back was white, sometimes black - no real logic).
I don't know if they supplied a warning notice or anything.
Either way, one does have to check the markings regularly.
The (single, may be double as well) sockets in the 1980s looked the same as they did from about 1990 onwards, except for introducing the makers name on the front and putting a red stripe on the switches.
What they also did was reverse the live and neutral terminals.
Otherwise the back of the socket looked the same (though sometimes the back was white, sometimes black - no real logic).
I don't know if they supplied a warning notice or anything.
Either way, one does have to check the markings regularly.
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