covid, vaccines, risk

[diy_fun_uk]

Hopefully if you know my replies in other topics, you'll know I'm not a covid denier etc. However I've been thinking about the vaccine risks, more specifically around the risk of blood clots.

One British man has died and four more suffered blood clotting after AstraZeneca vaccine (yahoo.com)

Now, when you consider the published risks (37 cases of 17 million vaccinated in the EU and UK) the chances of this happening to you are of course extremely slim. However, it does frustrate me slightly when medical experts stress the low risks followed by 'so please get the vaccine asap.' It doesn't frustrate me in the sense I think we should all stop getting the vaccine, however ... although the risks are close to zero ... it's still no comfort if you're one of the unlucky ones.

Yes I know it's true of all medications, side effects and so on. However there's no denying some people will be dying through getting the vaccine that would very likely have lived had they not. Still a bitter pill to swallow for those affected, no?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

There is a low risk of clots from the AZ vaccine, as the EMA and the MHRA recognise. But, the risk of catching the virus is greater.
On an individual level, you might weigh up your own risk.
But at the macro level it is safer to have the vaccine.

As a analogy, if you are dying from an incurable disease and you're offered an experimental treatment, you might as well take it, because you're dying anyway. You've nothing to lose.
But if you are dying slowly, and have many years of a good quality of life, you'd wait until the last chance to have the treatment.

Thus, on an individual level, if the risk of clots for mid-age people is greater, but the risk of severe symptoms form Covid is low, you might decide not to have the vaccine.
Whereas for older people, the risk of severe symptoms from Covid is high, it's worth having the vaccine, and taking the risk.

Whereas, at the macro level, if the number of clots caused by the vaccine is very low, but the number of deaths avoided by the vaccine is very high, it's worth the whole population having the vaccine.

Then there's the potential for reduced transmission, thus reduced variants, to be considered.
In addition, there's the load on the health service to be considered, with the reduction in other treatments, etc to be considered.

So at a macro level, it is absolutely worth having the vaccine, but at an individual level, you decide for yourself, but there might be unintended consequences if you decide not to have the vaccine and you fall ill with Covid

 

[noseall]

Still a bitter pill to swallow for those affected, no?

No. Their cards were marked.

 

[Dangee]

You’ve got more chance of clots if you don’t have it. Where is the issue?

 

[IT Minion]

Hopefully if you know my replies in other topics, you'll know I'm not a covid denier etc. However I've been thinking about the vaccine risks, more specifically around the risk of blood clots.

One British man has died and four more suffered blood clotting after AstraZeneca vaccine (yahoo.com)

Now, when you consider the published risks (37 cases of 17 million vaccinated in the EU and UK) the chances of this happening to you are of course extremely slim. However, it does frustrate me slightly when medical experts stress the low risks followed by 'so please get the vaccine asap.' It doesn't frustrate me in the sense I think we should all stop getting the vaccine, however ... although the risks are close to zero ... it's still no comfort if you're one of the unlucky ones.

Yes I know it's true of all medications, side effects and so on. However there's no denying some people will be dying through getting the vaccine that would very likely have lived had they not. Still a bitter pill to swallow for those affected, no?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

The odds of 1 in 100 dying compared to 1 in 500,000 are pretty clear as to which is worse. But its worth stressing that the number of blood clot deaths is smaller than the number that would be expected for the same number of people who didn't have any treatment. Arguably the vaccine seems to have saved some people from blood clots somehow. Realistically it's probably just random noise and some odd sampling effect and it doesn't do anything to prevent or cause clots.

 

[jeds]

This is a good example of how misinformation causes misunderstanding. There is no evidence at all that the vaccine caused even one single blood clot.

 

[^woody^]

The only clots are the ones who refuse the vaccine.

 

[ajohn]

Why post this when it's being stated by several bodies that clot rates are no different to what is to be expected in the normal population when no one has been vaccinated with anything.

This sort of effect is bound to crop up when so many people are being vaccinated as people have all sorts going wrong with them all of the time. It's normal.

Similarly the is a number of sudden deaths etc and a whole host of other factors. Well some people die all of the time. It's many 1,000's a week.

Clots it seems relate to 1 in 1,000,000 jabs. This is the other factor being mentioned. That is not a significant number in relationship to young people catching covid and finishing up dead or with serious end results. That risk is far far higher. So they mention this fact as well.

Net effect of both of these aspects is some think oh smoking gun.

 

[fillyboy]

Most European countries are resuming uptake of the Astra vaccine in the next few days. For the EU though, the self damage is done, on the world stage they look more ridiculous by the day.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Perhaps they died with blood clots within 28 days of a vaccination.

 

[Notch7]

on the world stage they look more ridiculous by the day

Hardly.

The world stage is still laughing at the stupidity of Brexit.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Yeah on balance it's probably not one of my better topics

 

[Notch7]

Yeah on balance it's probably not one of my better topics

I think your opening discussion to this thread makes some very important points.

It will become even more important when most of the UK become vaccinated and we still have BAME dense communities with low take up and risk Covid epidemics in the future.

It is vital that health concerns like blood clotting are discussed and govt investigate, because if it's felt to be kept secret, that will fuel mistrust.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

This is a good example of how misinformation causes misunderstanding. There is no evidence at all that the vaccine caused even one single blood clot.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

A causal link with the vaccine is not proven, but is possible and deserves further analysis.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/c...-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots
​

WHO and EMA say the benefits outweigh the risks. By implication there are risks. It is misleading to claim that there is no risk. There are also risks with not having the vaccine.

There are two types of blood clot associated with the vaccine:
thromboembolic (lungs) events

• the vaccine is not associated with an increase in the overall risk of blood clots (thromboembolic events) in those who receive it;

thrombocytopenia (other organs, including the brain)

• however, the vaccine may be associated with very rare cases of blood clots associated with thrombocytopenia, i.e. low levels of blood platelets (elements in the blood that help it to clot) with or without bleeding, including rare cases of clots in the vessels draining blood from the brain (CVST).

This allows the PRAC to confirm that there is no increase in overall risk of blood clots. However, in younger patients there remain some concerns, related in particular to these rare cases.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/c...-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots
​

Being aware of the risks allow everyone the opportunity to recognise symptoms which could be associated with the risks, and seek medical attention.

However, in the light of its findings, patients should be aware of the remote possibility of such syndromes, and if symptoms suggestive of clotting problems occur patients should seek immediate medical attention and inform healthcare professionals of their recent vaccination.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/c...-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots​

To simply deny such risks exist could result in an unnecessary death from a blood clot.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Now, when you consider the published risks (37 cases of 17 million vaccinated in the EU and UK) the chances of this happening to you are of course extremely slim. However, it does frustrate me slightly when medical experts stress the low risks followed by 'so please get the vaccine asap.' It doesn't frustrate me in the sense I think we should all stop getting the vaccine, however ... although the risks are close to zero ... it's still no comfort if you're one of the unlucky ones.

All they are saying is that 37 died from a blood clot, after having the jab. The 37 was slightly less than would be expected anyway, jab or no jab, so why blame it on the jab? If any conclusion can be drawn from that, it is only that the jab can reduce the chance of a clot forming.