Difference ILFE + DGF + DFE

[Rob]

Can someone sum up the difference mainly between the first two (HE?) DFE are freestanding (baskets)?

Also why does the DGF and DFE require the perm vent even under the 7KW (if no MI)

just trying to brush up on some things, harldy ever have anything to do with fires.

This is the pic in the viper gas book regarding the difference between the ILFE (Top right) and DGF (Bottom left)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/rob884/Photo-0108.jpg

Thanks in advance!

 

[Agile]

Any chance of a nicer pic so we can read the words?

These are always a problem because there is little distinction between the different types.

Its only an academic point as each individual unit must always be dealt with according to the MI.

I see many with no data plate or make indicated. That does not stress me because I just deal with them in the usual way but I know that newer entrants will find that situation a problem.

Tony

 

[Paul Barker]

Most fires are not distinguished by the manufacturer.

Most new ones are outsets or ilfe's some ilfe's are more like dfe's, but if you come to one with an inadequate data badge (basically 100% of modern fires) and ring the manufacturer, there is a strong chance he won't know if it's an ilfe or a dfe, or what the ventilation requirements are, that is if you can get through.

My advice have nothing to do with the whole sordid business, just whack combis up on the wall. 50% of open flued fires spill, you're just waisting your time for the sake of people's vanity or compromising your safety standards, all flueles fires are prospective killers, room sealed fires are inefficient. Whole industry exists to support vanity and provide profit for companies.

The man who is good with a combi is guaranteed a good future, now there are a goodly amount of badly designed ones ready for retirement on what were new estates 5 to 10 years ago. I sorely pitty the people who bought new houses in the last 20 years.

 

[Gasguru]

DFE - Decorative Fuel Effect or Decorative Flame Effect Fire

These are normally either tapered shape or basket type fires designed to fit in the builders opening; the tapered version fits the shaped chairbrick, the basket fits a plain opening. They are very low efficiency since excess air can't be controlled. Their KW input can vary from 5Kw to over 30Kw



ILFE - Insert Live Fuel Effect or Insert Living Flame Effect or Inset Live Fuel.....etc

The fire sits within the builders opening and is sealed to the surround at the perimeter. Normally either screwed back or pulled back with wire. As they are sealed the excess airflow is controlled through the fire and are more efficent. They are normally designed to increase convection currents through the fire box. Kw power is often 7 to 15KW

OLFE - Outset Living Flame Effect..etc

Again sealed to the surround so more efficent than plain DFE's but the firebox sits in front of the surround. And due to limited excess air and enhanced convection current efficienties are higher.


Generally all DFE's must have 100 cm2 ventillation unless the MI's say they are 7Kw or less and require no vent. These fires are often designated reduced draught. Obviously any spillage/extractors etc and ventillation must be increased accordingly.

Most ILFE/OLFE are 7 KW and the MI's state no extra ventillation required, above this ventillation required.

Older fires (especially DFE/baskets) often have no data plates and are in poor condition. Gas rating often shows vast quantities of gas are consumed (over 30KW sometimes) and often with no ventillation. If you encounter any fire with no data plate disconnect it and follow IUSP since you have no way of verifiying its safety.

Be careful of fires installed in living/dining rooms with the rooms knocked through - different ventillation requirements apply. If you leave a fire operating I suggest you issue an NCS form advising a CO alarm is fitted (or put it on your invoice) ie do everything you can to cover yourself. ASD's, ODP's do not work as we now know.

I disconnect at least 90% of fires (some brand new installations from local fireplace companies). You won't be popular but your conscience is clear. Often telling the landlord/homeowner it will cost a fortune to service/locate manuals/phoning technical etc will immediately provide a Yes to allow capping off

 

[Agile]

If you encounter any fire with no data plate disconnect it and follow IUSP since you have no way of verifiying its safety.

I think that Geoff is being a little strict here.

In this senario I would be inclined to gas rate it and if its well below 7 kW and it was not spilling in the worst case, kitchen /bathroom fans all on etc. then I would be happy to leave it on.

Most of the newer cheap ones I see are quite low power, more like 3.6 kW etc.

Tony

 

[Gasguru]

I think that Geoff is being a little strict here.

Too right, if there's no data plate the fires gonna be old, really old and likely to be in poor condition, unserviced,poorly installed and with no safety devices fitted whatsoever. Considering these things are usually designed to produce CO why stick you head on the chopping block.

Some are no more than a lenght of coiled 8mm tube drilled with holes along the lenght.

 

[Rob]

Thanks for replies chaps, made it even more complicated

Will stock up on 8mm caps for gas cert season.

My main concern was distinguishing between dfe and ilfe for the under 7kw vent?

Will just use initiate and if in doubt cap. I always recomend CO detectors for all OF appliances.

rob

 

[ollski]

I disconnect at least 90% of fires (some brand new installations from local fireplace companies).

I quite often get blocked precast flues after a summer of non use. How can you disconnect 9 out of 10 fires? , I would say I get one in 50 with a cracked hx or spilling, otherwise explain the dangers, recommend a co alarm and leave them to it. End of the day with no instructions you can't strip it anyway simply carry out a ff / spillage which it either passes or fails.

Generally if you can see up the chimney its a dfe if not its an lfe....I said generally.

 

[gas4you]

I always thought that any fire or c/f boiler must be provided with 100cm2 ventilation if no M I's present

 

[Gasguru]

Most fires I encounter are in let property in London and in a very poor condition. I have encountered tenants suffering from CO exposure several times (flues completely blocked).

Apparently simple faults eg space behind a Victorian insert not backfilled with a cement/vermiculite/micafil I will upgrade to At Risk since there is normally a large gap under the insert to allow incorrect airflow.

Remember you only need two NCS on flue/vents to consider upgrading to AR. A non compliant chimney pot and poorly sited terminal will do it.

 

[Agile]

Most of those I see with no data plate are new or less than 3-4 years old.

One of them was apparently supplied on a "made to measure" basis to fit the fireplace.

In many cases I advise that some external ventilation is provided even if not required because its less than 7 kW or the MI says its not necessary.

I always advise the tenants to take care and I describe the effects of CO to them.

Tony

 

[Paul Barker]

yes me too.

I have yet to come across a flue block install that is safe.

I come across many radiants from the gritish bass era which consistantly spill very badly.

 

[Gasguru]

Had an open flued boiler on precast flueblocks on the ground floor of a 4 story block of flats. Boiler and flats about 25 years old.

Unless the sky is blue I use the orange smoke bombs.

Walked out into the stairwell... completely full of smoke, it was pouring out of the riser compartments on several levels.

The flat had been issued with LGSR's for several years.

Landlord not happy - new FF boiler required.

 

[ACOperson]

Like Rob I struggle to differentiate between DFE and ILFE fires as I would never dream of installing a fire and am not interested in fixing them. However Ollski's tip is a handy one for when I do have to work on them - cheers.

At the minute I'm contracting to a large utility company (who shall remain nameless) and am forced to 'service' about 6 gas fires a week for them, and half the bloody things have no GC number, no model name, customer has no MI etc etc etc. Its really annoying that these appliances can be sold in this country without any relevent info on them for the people who are supposed to maintain them.

When I do work on them I spillage test them with a smoke pellet and flue flow with a large commercial size pellet as I've come across a few dodgy chimneys. I also run a CO test in the room for 8-10 mins while doing my paperwork. Unlike PB and Gasguru I do not experience spillage on 50-90% of the fires I come across, maybe 5%. I usually find a reason to AR the really old decorative fires with no data badge as they are a tradgedy waiting to happen...

My advice to any gas engineer: stay away from the bloody things wherever possible!

 

[Gasguru]

Unlike PB and Gasguru I do not experience spillage on 50-90% of the fires I come across, maybe 5%.

To clarify:

I may disconnect 90% due to poor installation, lack of servicing (and the customer not prepared to pay), unsuitable location, multiple NCS's on flueing/ventillation, AR or ID faults but out of the fires that get as far as me spillage testing perhaps only a few % fail at that stage.

If I'm going to the effort of removing ILFE's, OLFE's or radiants I need to be fairly confident its going to pass the spillage check for all the prior work that required. ie no point in touching a fire if the flue terminal is not compliant and in a downdraught location AR minimum but safer to up it to ID and cap the gas. Any customers who jib give them Corgis number - chances are they will never phone - no one's going to prosecute you for being over cautious.