Indeed - but that was largely superseded when 'dual tariff'; meters came along, in which there was time-related switching between the two registers.
Economy 7 clock wrong
- Thread starter Akustik
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Glad you agree.
Don't 'shoot the messenger'. I have merely been reporting what appears to be the situation!
Having said that, there may be a problem in doing anything different if (as is essential to the grid) one is to avoid exactly simultaneous switching of potentially millions of loads. IF (by edict either of themselves, the manufacturers of 'smart meters' or Ofgem) I am right in saying that the registers of a 'smart' meter are constrained to have 'round' 30-minute periods (starting from 00:00 every day, then I can't think of any way of implementing the required staggering of load switching without getting load-switching and billing a bit out-of-synch - can you?
Yes. Add a random delay from 1 to 30 minutes into every meter, didn't someone already suggest that?
Me?
As has been said repeatedly, that is, in common sense terms, the obvious 'solution'.
However, to keep billing correct, exactly the same random alteration would have to be made to both the register-switching times and 'load-switching' times - which, as I said, would not be possible if (as I believe may well be the case) the 30-minutely TOU registers in a 'smart' meter have to start their timings at 00:00
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I set my devices to turn on late rather than early, if I look at my own use
at midnight battery discharged, so there is some grid usage, but I don't start the charge of the batteries until 1:30 am, as I know they will be fully charged by 3:30 am, so since I have off-peak until 5:30 am I have 2 hours leeway.
Now with storage radiators they likely take longer,
at midnight battery discharged, so there is some grid usage, but I don't start the charge of the batteries until 1:30 am, as I know they will be fully charged by 3:30 am, so since I have off-peak until 5:30 am I have 2 hours leeway.Now with storage radiators they likely take longer,
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I set my devices to turn on late rather than early, if I look at my own use View attachment 405275 at midnight battery discharged, so there is some grid usage, but I don't start the charge of the batteries until 1:30 am, as I know they will be fully charged by 3:30 am, so since I have off-peak until 5:30 am I have 2 hours leeway.
Now with storage radiators they likely take longer, but like with my batteries this shows View attachment 405276 that only 5 hours are required, and they have 7, so no harm in starting the charging of the storage heat battery late, it seems however looking at around 1.35 kWh per day, so peak - off-peak in my case is 31.94-8.50 = 23.44p/kWh extra x 1.35 = 31.644p and a timer able to handle 3 kW costs around £10, so 32 days to pay for its self.
However, need to work out totals first, not sure a single storage heater pays for its self to start with? For every month I get one of these
so average 13.616p/kWh so that for me is far lower than the 26.91p/kWh standard rate. For me, the difference is so massive, no real need to do all months, I can easily see the split tariff is better for me.
But with storage heaters, in summer Economy 7 will not save anything. In fact, it will likely cost more, so before spending out on timers, need to be sure it is going to pay. With my heating, I select when I want to heat, and to only heat as and when required.
Now with storage radiators they likely take longer, but like with my batteries this shows View attachment 405276 that only 5 hours are required, and they have 7, so no harm in starting the charging of the storage heat battery late, it seems however looking at around 1.35 kWh per day, so peak - off-peak in my case is 31.94-8.50 = 23.44p/kWh extra x 1.35 = 31.644p and a timer able to handle 3 kW costs around £10, so 32 days to pay for its self.
However, need to work out totals first, not sure a single storage heater pays for its self to start with? For every month I get one of these
so average 13.616p/kWh so that for me is far lower than the 26.91p/kWh standard rate. For me, the difference is so massive, no real need to do all months, I can easily see the split tariff is better for me.But with storage heaters, in summer Economy 7 will not save anything. In fact, it will likely cost more, so before spending out on timers, need to be sure it is going to pay. With my heating, I select when I want to heat, and to only heat as and when required.
Erm are you sure about that?
One of my flats had 2 meters when I purchased. At the change of ownership it was decided to change the twin meters. A fitter came out and stated he was not permitted to make the alterations at the 2 CU's (actually both ends of a single CU) as the 4 tails plus earth went through the wall then in trunking. I received a letter stating I had to do some rewiring at the same time as the meter change and included a drawing in advance for the attention of my electrician and they would supply the connector on the day.
On the day the fitter handed over a used Henley and said he had not seen a white meter for a long time.
This was a bit over 20 years ago. I'd been in the meter box to read the 2 meters and AFAIC it was wired as BEFORE with the black and white meters & cutout. I had no form of switching in the house
Why it couldn't have been done like this I don't know
As it happens, when I changed letting agents later; one of their requirements was a single main switch which I was able to reconfigure without too much effort which I wouldn't have been able to do as easily.
I've always done that with my E7 water heating, which needs power for only about 2.5 hours even if the cylinder starts 'cold' (which is very rarely the case - 1 hour or less of heating is more normal) - so I can have it coming on 'hours' after the start of the off-peak period 'to be safe' (and its obviously better to have the heating happening towards the end of the cheap period)!
What are your Day and Night rates?
Reasonably, but it was 40 years ago.
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As I remember, the problem with the white meter was off-peak only used by storage heaters and dedicated immersion heater, when the meters were replaced could also use washing machines etc on off-peak.
If we had figures for Economy 7 it could be worked out, but it only shows the amounts of each as I hover over the graph, this was my problem when I changed supplier, I lost the ability to look back at what had been used, I need a years' data, to work out what I need to pay, to cover the bill with a regular monthly payment.
I have said 31.94p/kWh and 8.50p/kWh and if I did not have off-peak it would be 26.91p/kWh but seems the rates vary area to area, so around 78% peak and 22% off-peak is the cut-off point for me, if less than 22% off-peak being used, I would be better off with a single rate tariff at 26.91p/kWh, my batteries ensure I will always use more off-peak to peak, so for me no question.
If we had figures for Economy 7 it could be worked out, but it only shows the amounts of each as I hover over the graph, this was my problem when I changed supplier, I lost the ability to look back at what had been used, I need a years' data, to work out what I need to pay, to cover the bill with a regular monthly payment.
This seems to be how the UK is divided up on a cost of supply basis. This is todays map, for those on the Octopus Tracker tariff, for which the cost is quite high at the moment... I'm in the highlighted 24.07p per Kwh area.
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Once one uses something like tracker, it is a lottery, but even with fixed rates, it's not easy to work out which is the best tariff. Also, do you really want to be swapping tariffs all the time? An internet hunt
With any split tariff, there is a break even point. But using storage radiators is really hard to work out, due to the loses, I remember back in the 70s a block of council houses being built, where it had a central heat store, and a colleague had one of these houses, and he could turn off the heating fans, and the store would stay hot for a week, so there are some very good storage heating systems. But the self-contained radiator I had at work, would struggle to maintain the output for 9 hours. At work, it was OK, by 6 pm did not need it any more, I was going home, but at home, so much is dependent on insulation, I look at my own house
and how the room temperature decays, 7 hours it drops 22°C to 16°C with the heating off, and allowing it to drop saves money for fuel, and the storage radiator will not allow the temperature to drop while waiting for the time when heat is required, so wastes energy.
So to work out how much electric would be used with an oil filled radiator v a storage radiator will vary home to home, there is no fixed figure, also with a child at home all day likely heat wanted all day, but when going out to work, likely heat only want 5 pm to midnight. So many have found the storage radiator does not work for them.
The larger the home, the more heat it retains, so a home with 8 storage radiators will hold the heat in the home even when hardly any heat coming from the radiators, but a home which is small enough to be heated by one radiator is unlikely to retain much heat in the fabric of the building.
Hence, looking at power being used, the question one has to be are storage radiators the way to go? If not, the whole idea of improving the use of off-peak is not worth talking about.
there is far too much variation to say if worth it or not.
With any split tariff, there is a break even point. But using storage radiators is really hard to work out, due to the loses, I remember back in the 70s a block of council houses being built, where it had a central heat store, and a colleague had one of these houses, and he could turn off the heating fans, and the store would stay hot for a week, so there are some very good storage heating systems. But the self-contained radiator I had at work, would struggle to maintain the output for 9 hours. At work, it was OK, by 6 pm did not need it any more, I was going home, but at home, so much is dependent on insulation, I look at my own house
and how the room temperature decays, 7 hours it drops 22°C to 16°C with the heating off, and allowing it to drop saves money for fuel, and the storage radiator will not allow the temperature to drop while waiting for the time when heat is required, so wastes energy.So to work out how much electric would be used with an oil filled radiator v a storage radiator will vary home to home, there is no fixed figure, also with a child at home all day likely heat wanted all day, but when going out to work, likely heat only want 5 pm to midnight. So many have found the storage radiator does not work for them.
The larger the home, the more heat it retains, so a home with 8 storage radiators will hold the heat in the home even when hardly any heat coming from the radiators, but a home which is small enough to be heated by one radiator is unlikely to retain much heat in the fabric of the building.
Hence, looking at power being used, the question one has to be are storage radiators the way to go? If not, the whole idea of improving the use of off-peak is not worth talking about.
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