Electric boiler?

[ebee]

In my youngest years (and maybe the same for you), the only source of hot water we had was a gas-powered 'Ascot' instantaneous heater, with a 'swing arm

Did see them (or similar) about at our friends and our older relatives, were very popular indeed

 

[ericmark]

My oil boiler will continue to run, until my batteries go flat, and the solar could mean they could last for weeks. I also have one open fire, which I do not really want to use.

The last house had a gas fire and flue bricks, so again a method to heat house with no mains electric.

As long as the boiler is powered from a 13 amp socket, and no one has used a silly FCU, even one of these, could keep the heating running, one shown is just 150 watt, not tried to run the central heating, but would likely run for 8 hours. I would guess one of these would work

which is not that expensive. But size of generator to run electric heating,

is both more expensive, and much larger physical size, having essential services on a 32 amp plug and socket, was something I did consider, just unplug from main CU and plug it into a generator, (Run time: 11 hours @ 50% load.) (Noise level: 97 dB(A) at 7m) the inverter generator (Noise Level 58 dB at 7m) will be running at more like a tick over to run a boiler, so even less noise.

 

[ebee]

I see that Eric and a few others have some contingencies which is not a bad thing, in the older days people kept a few spare candles and a "night light" candle or two - night light candles were for the outside loo to stop the water pipe from freezing up in those ice cold winters, if you were moderately well off you had your own outside loo next to the coal place and the cheaper properties had no loo but a communal at the bottom of every back street or three - had multiple seats quite often so you sat next to a neighbour or two discussing life in general whilst sat on the loo, some of them were a "tipler" toilet which was virtually just a wooden seat down to the sewer sevaral feet below.
Those "new fangled" inside loo were thought to be dirty horrible places to have inside a house.

And all of that was normal for many folks arond the northern towns and if felt normal you never felt deprived

 

[JohnW2]

My oil boiler will continue to run, until my batteries go flat, and the solar could mean they could last for weeks. ...

Yes, but that's just "you" and, as I said, the great majority of people in UK do not have any source of electricity other than the grid - so, as I said, loss of grid electricity will cause them to also lose gas/LPG/oil central heating.

 

[ericmark]

Eric and a few others have some contingencies

Down to age, I was in a house with gas hot air central heating, and floor to ceiling picture windows in the 1978 winter of discontent and after that I vowed never again would I rely on electric for heating.

My dad, from Lancashire (although now called Cheshire) would say "You know what thought did - walked behind a muck cart and thought it was a wedding." I have never seen a muck cart, but know what they are, and we still had a door to empty the toilet in some of the two up/two down houses where I was brought up.

My youngest daughter rented a flat which was originally heated by the cows kept below it.

It was very cold, mainly as no double glazing and not permitted to fit it, 14th century Grade ll listed building, I looked for photos and found went on fire on the 27th.

 

[JohnW2]

Down to age, I was in a house with gas hot air central heating, and floor to ceiling picture windows in the 1978 winter of discontent and after that I vowed never again would I rely on electric for heating.

In 1978, I was living in a house which had no central heating of any sort !

You have spent a considerable amount of money in order to reduce (eliminate, at least for short periods) your reliance on the electricity grid - an amount way way beyond the means of those countless people who get seriously worried about, say, a £100 p.a. increase in their energy bills.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You have spent a considerable amount of money in order to reduce (eliminate, at least for short periods) your reliance on the electricity grid - an amount way way beyond the means of those countless people who get seriously worried about, say, a £100 p.a. increase in their energy bills.

I would suggest most people with any sense, invest heavily for their comfort, in their older years. As I did.

This house had no central heating, until around 1985. It was permanently cold, and drafty in winter, despite having heaters, and crowding around the gas fire, running at 4kw. Very different now, we are able to make use of the entire room, with a similar fire, ticking over at around 600w.

 

[ericmark]

Had the heating worked reasonably when we moved in, then likely I would have done nothing. However, it was a complete mess, and my attempts to correct it, were not as required to start with, so I looked at why, what had I done wrong.

As I am sure with most who try to improve the heating, I realised there were two methods, one reduce the loses, and the other improve control, and I realised they would interact with each other.

To date, the open fire has never been lit by me. I have a store of wood, mostly from ripped up decking, replaced with brick sets, and not sure if it should be used in doors, as no idea of what it has been treated with through the years. Being slowly used up with a fire pit, when using the BBQ, but still there for emergency use.

There is a board over the fire place to stop drafts, with a spigot to connect the AC to in summer, a Heath Robinson affair, which needs remaking, on my to-do list. There is a baffle so it does not allow room air up the flue once the cover is on the spigot, when the AC is in place, we can turn it on without having a window open, the drawback is I need a bottle to collect the condensate in the summer.

Never had a problem with other houses over heating in the summer, but the veranda seems to catch the sun, which can't really complain about, it is nice sitting out in the sun when we get it, being elevated no fences, or trees to stop the sun.

 

[JohnW2]

I would suggest most people with any sense, invest heavily for their comfort, in their older years. As I did.

Yes, maybe some do - IF they can afford to. However, although it obviously would benefit them in the long term, those currently having to (literally or 'almost') "choose between eating and heating" are clearly in no position to make any 'investment' of any sort.

This house had no central heating, until around 1985. It was permanently cold, and drafty in winter, despite having heaters, and crowding around the gas fire, running at 4kw. Very different now, we are able to make use of the entire room, with a similar fire, ticking over at around 600w.

Indeed so. I had intended (but never did) to say to BS3036 that anyone seriously considering the large amount of effort and cost required to seriousl insulate a cellar so as to allow it to be used as a long-term heat store would probably be better advised to expend (probably a lot less) their effort and money on insulating and draft-proofing their house (albeit recommendations regarding 'ventilation' somewhat undermine the draft-proofing!).

A very well-insulated (and 'draft-proof') home requires remarkably little heating - particularly for, say, a retired couple who spend the great majority of their time in the home. I think an adult human will put something like 2.5 kWh of heat into the environment per day (converted from chemical energy in the food they consume) - and a total of ~5 kWh per day is a substantial proportion of the total heat requirement for a very well-insulated home.

 

[ericmark]

Many years ago, I visited the the alternative technology centre in Machynlleth well more towards Corris, but that is unimportant, they had built a home out of hay bales, or similar, and it retained most of the heat, it looked impressive, if one is satisfied with very small windows, and walls 2 foot thick.

It was interesting in the late 80's to see what they had done, today the general public can no longer just walk in, group tours only. But just up the road we have the Corris steam railway, and an impressive craft centre, with tours around slate mines, so much to do in the area, and the Tywyn railway was the first to be volunteer run. Called Tal-y-llyn, although the railway never went there. The area well worth a visit, also the Fairbourne railway, and the Mawddach trail, great views, but to walk a bit too far, cycling is a better option. Not my area of Wales, I do visit, and use my heritage rail card to get cheap rides.

But the point is, we look for near enough. We will never get perfect.

 

[JohnW2]

... either an electric combi or an electric heating-only boiler plus an electric instantaneous water heater.

makes no sense for anyone ever.

In the UK, and 'as things are' at present, I would imagine that we all agree with that.

However, that view results almost entirely from the current difference in the UK between thge prices of electricity and gas. Were they roughly the same cost, it would probably be almost a 'non-brainer' to go for electricity 'for everything' - wiring and electrical components is simpler/cheaper to install that pipework and gas appliances, and electricity is more flexible/versatile, and easier to 'control (not to mention that it never 'blows up' ).

I realise that energy costs in UK are currently amongst the highest (maybe 'the' highest?) in the world. However, as I asked before, what about the differential cost of electricity and gas - is the UK unique in having such a large difference, or is it a common situation around the world?

 

[ebee]

Plus we have got to try to make with a hope of certainty that approximately that comparison will stay the same for some years to come, hindight is a great tool if we can use it in a crytal bell type fashion, will it stay approx stable or even mostly so it do we have some (almost reliable) info that looks like they will become nearer to on parr or even reverse to some extent, sometimes some investors take such wild gambles but do the ordinay folk (or dare they!) ?

 

[JohnW2]

Plus we have got to try to make with a hope of certainty that approximately that comparison will stay the same for some years to come, hindight is a great tool if we can use it in a crytal bell type fashion, will it stay approx stable or even mostly so it do we have some (almost reliable) info that looks like they will become nearer to on parr or even reverse to some extent, sometimes some investors take such wild gambles but do the ordinay folk (or dare they!) ?

Sure - there obviously cannot be any certainties.

However, I would suggest that it's extremely improbable that, in the UK, the prices of electricity and gas could become 'similar' (unless, of course, the government tried to price gas out of the market with taxes/duties!) in the even remotely foreseeable future - and, similarly, seemingly very improbable that any counties in which the prices are currently 'similar' will develop the massive electricity-gas difference such as we are experiencing in the even remotely foreseeable future.

 

[flameport]

Were they roughly the same cost, it would probably be almost a 'non-brainer' to go for electricity 'for everything' -

Yes it would - but even then, an electric combi boiler is still a disaster that no one should be considering. Most people won't want one either as soon as they discover how poor the performance is compared to gas alternatives that they already have.,
Attempting to heat decent quantities of hot water on demand with an electric piece is not going to happen with any normal domestic electricity supply.

Even with a gigantically oversized supply just for the electric combi, it would place a massive load onto the network every time someone turned on a tap, and then remove all of it when off. Banging large loads on and off all the time is exactly what the network was never designed for and will cause problems for other users. It's also entirely incompatible with any kind of local solar generation or any time of use tariff.

what about the differential cost of electricity and gas - is the UK unique in having such a large difference

It's not unique to the UK, as most countries have gas cheaper than electricity but the difference in the UK between gas and electricity is among the highest anywhere.
The UK is massively exposed to gas prices as it's the primary method of heating for the vast majority of buildings, UK is a net importer of gas and has been for years, and gas is the primary driver of electricity prices most of the time due to our outdated energy market.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes it would - but even then, an electric combi boiler is still a disaster that no one should be considering.

Probably true but, as I presume you realise, I wasn't talking specifically about electric combi boilers - I merely quote my reference to them to give context to your reply (which I did want to quote).

Again as I presume you realise, my whole point was that if gas and electricity prices were similar, then it would probably be a 'no-brainer' to decide not to use gas for anything.

Attempting to heat decent quantities of hot water on demand with an electric piece is not going to happen with any normal domestic electricity supply.

You're presumably talking about baths again - and, as I recently wrote, everything would get much simpler and more sensible if the practice of taking baths were to largely disappear. I suspect it's already pretty uncommon - the majority of people I know about ('friends and family' etc.) seem to already be 'showers-only' people.

Even with a gigantically oversized supply just for the electric combi, it would place a massive load onto the network every time someone turned on a tap, and then remove all of it when off. Banging large loads on and off all the time is exactly what the network was never designed for and will cause problems for other users.

Particularly if, as above, baths become a very minor part of the equation (and even if they didn't), a lot of those concerns would be addressed by 'diversity' (over time), since the large loads would not be turning on and off simultaneously.

In any event, again, that was not my point. If it ever became financially sensible to be 'all electric' then one could, if one wanted (which one might, if one wanted baths) still have some stored hot water.

It's not unique to the UK, as most countries have gas cheaper than electricity but the difference in the UK between gas and electricity is among the highest anywhere.

That's what I suspected.

The UK is massively exposed to gas prices as it's the primary method of heating for the vast majority of buildings, UK is a net importer of gas and has been for years, and gas is the primary driver of electricity prices most of the time due to our outdated energy market.

All true, but, if we are "massively exposed to gas prices", and a net importer of it, why is it that gas is so much cheaper than electricity in the UK?