electrician credentials

[ebee]

Apparently - according to a Gas Safe/Corgi registered pal of mine it is not enough to mere unplug/plug in a cooker etc on a modern bayonet plug and socket for the unit but it must also be tested against leakage of the seal and suitable capping off even if doing a simple change of appliance within minutes.

Even though in reality with DIYers/ordinary folk and quite possibly more than a few of the registered would not fllow that procedure even if they were aware of it.

 

[denso13]

and suitable capping off even if doing a simple change of appliance within minutes.

That is actually only a recommendation, and while Gas Safe members have to do a bit more, those are not even required for DIY.

 

[ebee]

Thanks Denso, I suspected something along those lines but my only knowledge of such regs is what is the opinion etc of Plumbing and Heating Engineers - with our Wiring Regs I am more conversant by qualification, knowledge and experience over many years.

I think often, in any trade/any walk of life you meet folks who are highly qualified or trained and you tend to make note of what they say and often that might include a few myths and self prefences even with otherwise good intention.
I know lots of folks who do this inadvertantly or with good intent and I myself can not verify that I have never ever erred that way with things I do know properly about. Nobody is Perfick

 

[denso13]

Thanks Denso, I suspected something along those lines but my only knowledge of such regs is what is the opinion etc of Plumbing and Heating Engineers - with our Wiring Regs I am more conversant by qualification, knowledge and experience over many years.

I think often, in any trade/any walk of life you meet folks who are highly qualified or trained and you tend to make note of what they say and often that might include a few myths and self prefences even with otherwise good intention.
I know lots of folks who do this inadvertantly or with good intent and I myself can not verify that I have never ever erred that way with things I do know properly about. Nobody is Perfick

Agree with all of that. There are some minor mistakes, being overcautious is one, but the downright dangerous occurrences, in all trades/walks of like should be minimised as far as possible.

Sadly, we just can't legislate for stupid.

 

[SimonH2]

What on earth has any of that got to do with fitting a gas cooker?

You don't know ? I thought you knew all about doing gas work safely - yet here we are and I've identified some of your unknown unknowns.

Enlighten me, what tests are legally required when plugging on a cooker?

Again, it seems you have unknown unknowns - that you ask the question shows that you don't know what's required to do the electrical side safely.

Which boiler?

I forget what make, but it was at my late mother's house. Had to leave them to it - it was during covid - and came back to find he'd removed a brand new socket and replaced it with an FCU. I was "not pleased" and had to be quite insistent that he WAS going to put it back. He was "unhappy", claimed the FCU was required by the manufacturer's instructions (it wasn't), and grudgingly put it back. Not a hint of any testing - no measurement of Zs, no measurement it IR, no test of RCD operation, ..., all requirements for the Minor Works certificate he also didn't produce, and without which his work was not compliant with BS7671. A subset of your, and I suspect many gas engineers, apparent unknown unknowns.

 

[denso13]

You don't know ?

I do know. It has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's a stupid argument

Again, it seems you have unknown unknowns - that you ask the question shows that you don't know what's required to do the electrical side safely.

I'll take that as there being no electrical tests required before you plug a cooker in. I thought as much.

I forget what make,

How convenient.

and without which his work was not compliant with BS7671

Which of course isn't the law. I hope you reported him to the relevant authorities.

 

[pete01]

Which of course isn't the law. I hope you reported him to the relevant authorities.

I would call 999

 

[SimonH2]

I do know. It has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's a stupid argument

Aparently you don't. You are the one who intriduced unknown unknowns with an inference that they don't happen if you've done certain training. I'm merely pointing out that all the training has done is move the boundary.

I'll take that as there being no electrical tests required before you plug a cooker in. I thought as much.

Then you think wrong. And in any case, many cookers are wired in, not plugged in - not that it makes much difference to the tests required if you are doing it right.

How convenient.

Does it matter what make ? All you need to know is that the MIs state a requirement for a means of isolation with a minimum contact separation of 3mm. That can be met with an FCU, and it can be met (arguably better) with a plug & socket. The latter also allowing for (e.g.) running and extension lead to a generator or battery/inverter pack if the mains is off. A plug & socket can also be more reliably locked off (something else I've never seen a gas engineer do) than almost any FCU.

Which of course isn't the law.

How convenient - compliance with a non-statutory "something" is essential when it suits you, and not when it doesn't

I hope you reported him to the relevant authorities.

Considering it's one of the more minor issues I've had with them, no I didn't. I did report the case of the bodged flue I've mentioned earlier - but Gas Safe didn't really do anything. I also reported a different issue a few years earlier but they refused to even look. So much for Gas Safe and enforcing safety standards

 

[ebee]

I do think that many Gas Safe bods seem to think that BS7671 or any relevant laws on electricals, they have a mindset that only gas laws/rules are important but not so much electrical ones even when their boilers etc might be connected to an electrical supply.
Some of them not all of them.

Has anyone considered unknown knowns (thinks something is an unknown but eventually they realise that yes they did actually know the answer all along) ?

Rumbsfeld

 

[denso13]

Aparently you don't. You are the one who intriduced unknown unknowns with an inference that they don't happen if you've done certain training. I'm merely pointing out that all the training has done is move the boundary.

I mentioned unknown unknowns because a DIYer being able to solder some joints doesn't make them competent in repairing gas pipework. They simply don't know what else is required. You then made the stupid statement that someone trained in fitting gas cookers isn't competent because they don't know things like metallurgy. Crazy nonsense.

Then you think wrong. And in any case, many cookers are wired in, not plugged in - not

Then what are those legally required tests before something is plugged in. Or are you just going to swerve any questions again?

Does it matter what make ?

Would have been interesting to see what the fitter thought he read.

How convenient - compliance with a non-statutory "something" is essential when it suits you, and not when it doesn't

I have never stated that anywhere. Lying doesn't help your case.

 

[denso13]

do think that many Gas Safe bods seem to think that BS7671 or any relevant laws on electricals, they have a mindset that only gas laws/rules are important but not so much electrical ones even when their boilers etc might be connected to an electrical supply.
Some of them not all of them.

Agreed but it happens in all trades and walks of life. Training helps but is isn't foolproof. Even professional bodies, such as the IET have there share of fraudulent people who can't be trusted.

anyone considered unknown knowns (thinks something is an unknown but eventually they realise that yes they did actually know the answer all along) ?

You mean it has gone from an unknown unknown, to a known known

 

[SimonH2]

I mentioned unknown unknowns because a DIYer being able to solder some joints doesn't make them competent in repairing gas pipework. They simply don't know what else is required. You then made the stupid statement that someone trained in fitting gas cookers isn't competent because they don't know things like metallurgy. Crazy nonsense.

Only crazy if you can't see the point I was making, but then I suspect that if you haven't by now, you never will. I'll try spelling it out for you ...
You pick upa piece of copper pipe, how do you know (KNOW, not just assume, but KNOW) that it is suitable ? It might have the BS number stamped into it, how do you KNOW that it's not a bad batch of pipe ? OK, bit of a strawman, but it's an unknown unknown - well actually, in this case for some of us it's a known unknown. Can't have a bad batch, well s**t happens - BTW, according to the reports, 4 million metres of cable wasn't pulled from the supply chain so is assumed to be in use, that's 100 times around the earth Happens to pipe as well, and dunno if it was this sort of problem, but our local health centre was closed not long ago for all the plumbing to be replaced after multiple failures.
So, without the metallurgical knowledge to assess a piece of pipe, you assume it's OK, but there is no 100% guarantee.

Yes, it's a strawman argument, but it's in response to your crazy argument that appears to state that it's impossible for someone who hasn't done a specific course and got a specific qualification to be able to do a certain task, and that if you held that ticket, then there were no unknown unknowns. Is that your argument, or are you backtracking on that ?

Then what are those legally required tests before something is plugged in. Or are you just going to swerve any questions again?

Much like you are bringing in codes etc. to gas work ?
There are tests (I've mentioned them already) which you need to do in order to ensure that the electrical works are reasonably safe. If you don't do them, then you can't state that the electrical work is safe. No, BS7671 is not law, but complying with it is generally going to stand you in good stead if hauled up under the various consumer protection and health & safety laws. If you ignored it, not done basic checks, and s**t happens, then you will have broken one or more of those laws.

Would have been interesting to see what the fitter thought he read.

I don't think he had, just assumed as they all used to say "must use FCU"

I have never stated that anywhere. Lying doesn't help your case.

I'm not lying.
You have made it clear that in your opinion, it's impossible for someone who hasn't done a non-statutory course to gain a non-statutory qualification can comply with the law. So that means you think compliance with a non-statutory "something" (you quoted it, I c.b.a. to go and look for it) is essential.
Are you disputing that part ? You've made it very clear that without those non-statutory things, it's impossible to be competent to (e.g.) solder a pipe fitting, and hence cannot comply with the gas safety regs.

But then you also appear to be happy that non-compliance (note, non-compliance, not just "hasn't got a ticket but is complying anyway") with a different non-statutory "something" (e.g. BS7671) is OK. You clearly don't see any need for any tests before connecting a cooker or boiler to it's power supply, so you don't appear to have a problem ignoring a different non-statutory "thing" when that suits your argument.

So, which of those are you backtracking on ?


EDIT: BTW, one specific electrical regulation would be the Building Regulations "P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." That's a law (regulation), not a non-statutory standard (BS7671), and applies in all residential properties. BTW, that's also the entire extent of Part P.
The approved document makes heavy reference to BS7671, but does allow for alternative means of compliance - but then you would need to be able to show that the alternative was reasonable and offered equivalent protection as would have been achieved by following BS7671.

 

[morqthana]

Being competent includes passing the relevant ACS assessments, as Gas Safe people do. Without the appropriate training you can't be competent.

Which LAW says that?

How convenient - compliance with a non-statutory "something" is essential when it suits you, and not when it doesn't

I have never stated that anywhere.

So nowhere have you stated that compliance with the training regime outlined in ACOP is essential?

Really?

Lying doesn't help your case.

Indeed not.

 

[denso13]

crazy if you can't see the point I was making, but then I suspect that if you haven't by now, you never will. I'll try spelling it out for you ...
You pick upa piece of copper pipe, how do you know (KNOW, not just assume, but KNOW) that it is suitable ? It might have the BS number stamped into it, how do you KNOW that it's not a bad batch of pipe ? OK, bit of a strawman, but it's an unknown unknown - well actually, in this case for some of us it's a known unknown. Can't have a bad batch, well s**t happens - BTW, according to the reports, 4 million metres of cable wasn't pulled from the supply chain so is assumed to be in use, that's 100 times around the earth Happens to pipe as well, and dunno if it was this sort of problem, but our local health centre was closed not long ago for all the plumbing to be replaced after multiple failures.

Check by testing, which a trained person knows all about. No one has to use X ray testing to ensure the wall thickness is as per spec.

There are tests (I've mentioned them already) which you need to do in order to ensure that the electrical works are reasonably safe.

Not when you plug in an appliance. Unless you want to finally reveal what the tests are?

You have made it clear that in your opinion, it's impossible for someone who hasn't done a non-statutory course to gain a non-statutory qualification can comply with the law. So that means you think compliance with a non-statutory "something" (you quoted it, I c.b.a. to go and look for it) is essential.

You are doing it at again!! I have never said it's impossible. This all started when you said that someone who can solder fittings to pipework can do gas work, because there is nothing to it. I said I disagree because there is much more to it than that. You then went off on some crazy tangent about metallurgy, which is ridiculous.

then you also appear to be happy that non-compliance (note, non-compliance, not just "hasn't got a ticket but is complying anyway") with a different non-statutory "something" (e.g. BS7671) is OK. You clearly don't see any need for any tests before connecting a cooker or boiler to it's power supply, so you don't appear to have a problem ignoring a different non-statutory "thing" when that suits your argument.

You are doing it again!! I said there are no electrical tests required when plugging a cooker in. You don't need to make up extra bits.

EDIT: BTW, one specific electrical regulation would be the Building Regulations "P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." That's a law (regulation), not a non-statutory standard (BS7671), and applies in all residential properties. BTW, that's also the entire extent of Part P.
The approved document makes heavy reference to BS7671, but does allow for alternative means of compliance - but then you would need to be able to show that the alternative was reasonable and offered equivalent protection as would have been achieved by following BS7671.

I know all that. Still not relevant to plugging an appliance in.

 

[denso13]

Which LAW says that?

Not law, as I have already stated.

Of course (it isn't the law), but it is pretty clear. If someone thinks they can comply with this some other way, then good luck to them.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf

nowhere have you stated that compliance with the training regime outlined in ACOP is essential?

The ACOP isn't law.