electrician credentials

[SimonH2]

Quite, but it's the unknown unknowns that catch people out. Someone might think the could work on a gas pipe because their soldering is top notch and not even be aware of the important bits.

The ONLY solution to that is no-one ever does anything. There are always unknowns, hence no-one ever knows for sure what they could have missed, therefore never do anything.
OK, reductio ad absurdum, but you get the idea.

Sadly, some tradespeople are cowboys.

Even those who have a trade scam logo on their van & paperwork, those same scams who tell eveyone the only way to get safe work is to use their members

 

[denso13]

The ONLY solution to that is no-one ever does anything. There are always unknowns, hence no-one ever knows for sure what they could have missed, therefore never do anything.
OK, reductio ad absurdum, but you get the idea.

Quite. Hence why you should leave gas work, or anything really, to the competent

those same scams who tell eveyone the only way to get safe work is to use their members

How would you at least try to ensure that things like gas work are done safely?

 

[ericmark]

My introduction to gas, was 1980 on a 42" pipe line, I have since then worked a lot with commensal gas, the last was a combined power power station, but I would not do domestic gas, that is a different world.

I know my dad also worked with gas, and he lost some colleagues due to gas, and as a result I have always had a lot of respect for it, OK today we no longer have coking ovens, lighting up the sky when they are pushed, and we don't have tar in the gas which could seal up small leaks, making them hard to find.

But what has all that got to do with electrical credentials? I have only been qualified to work with low voltage, my son has trained with high voltage, but although I have assisted I was not trained, however I have done enough to know it is a whole different world, and rather unforgiving.

OK technically I suppose the PAT tester wand at 2.5 kV is high voltage, as was a cars ignition circuit, but I am not counting that.

The 600 volt supplied to the TBM motors was the highest voltage I have worked with, in real terms, even if the TBM supplied with 10 kV, so I have only worked with low voltage.

I would not attempt to work with mineral insulated cable, yes trained how to, but that was some 50 years ago at collage, and I accept better option is to get someone use to working with it, so would not attempt to re-wire the local church.

PLC and Drives were my bread and butter, but they have moved on so much, even them today I would be wary of. And when I look back, I realise some of the things I did when young were not really best practice, like refilling worn dash pots with 40 grade oil, it worked, but really the fire risk was unacceptable, proper transformer oil does not burn.

I think last dash pot I have worked with was around 1985, are there still any around?

Around 1995 I was working on resistor and auto transformer starters, would not think many of them left either?

Even the fluorescent lamp, seems to have now gone.

The most complex system found with domestic was central heating, and today most of that is built into the boiler, so all the electrician does is to provide power to the boiler.

As to setting up smart devices, does the electrician really even do that, or is it left to the home owner?

When I started, it was up to the electrician to decide what was safe, and not sure we did that very well, thinking back to the knife switches I saw in Queensferry bridge, open live parts have been banned for many years.

But today we have regulations for near every aspect, although even then, I find myself scratching my head, wondering what is going on.

For example, we were told that the distribution unit used where ordinary people were in control had to be type tested, and it is called a consumer unit. These were made up to 125 amp limit, in real terms 100 amp seemed to be the normal, I hunted the BS 7671 of the time, and could not find where it said this, but it could have been a HSE directive, which would explain why I could not find it. Or even a LABC thing? However today we are seeing three phase being taken to homes, and you can't get three phase consumer units.

Clearly something has changed, I am now retired, so it does not worry me, but it is clear, things are changing. I was told last week I would not find three phase in the home, I named two three phase devices without really thinking about it, my washing machine and freezer are both three phase. OK single phase supply, and an inverter generates 3 phase, but we still have it in our home.

So much has changed, the old red to red, yellow to yellow, and blue to bits does not work with new colours. As to SPD etc, do we really need them? I note my son has loss of PEN detection in his meter cupboard, which will turn off whole house, is that the next thing for all?

 

[denso13]

what has all that got to do with electrical credentials?

Nothing really, just a wider discussion on competency across all sectors and professions.

It can never be perfect but you either try to enforce some sort of standards, to ensure safety amongst other things, or you might think registration bodies are just scams and have a free for all.

I know what my preference is.

 

[SimonH2]

For example, we were told that the distribution unit used where ordinary people were in control had to be type tested, and it is called a consumer unit. These were made up to 125 amp limit, in real terms 100 amp seemed to be the normal, I hunted the BS 7671 of the time, and could not find where it said this, but it could have been a HSE directive, which would explain why I could not find it.

It's from BS EN 61439, Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies. Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)
In annex ZB it has :
"BS EN 61439-3:2012
3.1 Additional definition
3.1.104 Customer distribution board CDBAn integrated assembly, for the control and distribution of electrical energy, principally in a household or similar premise, incorporating manual means of double-pole isolation on the incoming circuit(s), with polarity observed throughout. They are designed for use exclusively with specific protective devices on the outgoing circuits, and type-tested for use when energized through the specified 100 amp fuse.
NOTE Generally known in the UK as a Consumer unit."
And there are multiple references to 100A.

So basically, a consumer unit according to BS EN 61439 only has to support a 100A supply, hence there's little point making them for more than that. It's interesting to see what it doesn't require, many of the attributes people think a CU has to have aren't actually required.

Or even a LABC thing? However today we are seeing three phase being taken to homes, and you can't get three phase consumer units.

The BS allows for them, note in the above where it mentions "incoming circuit(s)". And various other sections have statements/requirements supporting multiple phases.

 

[morqthana]

However today we are seeing three phase being taken to homes,

To what extent? What % of new homes start out with a 3-phase supply, and how many existing ones upgrade each year?

and you can't get three phase consumer units.

Do we need them? Apart from a small number of fast chargers (which I'm guessing would have integral protection and not rely on a 3-phase DB being present?) do we have 3-phase loads in our homes?

I was told last week I would not find three phase in the home, I named two three phase devices without really thinking about it, my washing machine and freezer are both three phase. OK single phase supply, and an inverter generates 3 phase, but we still have it in our home.

And you'd argue that anybody with a microwave oven has MV in their home, would you?

 

[SimonH2]

Do we need them? Apart from a small number of fast chargers (which I'm guessing would have integral protection and not rely on a 3-phase DB being present?) do we have 3-phase loads in our homes?

You forget that you don't need 3P loads to justify a 3P supply. Especially if the local network doesn't support 80A or 100A supplies, 3P (or even just 2P) allows more load to be supplied.
I think there are people here in this forum that have 3P for just that reason, though that probably dates back to the days of power hungry night storage heaters.

 

[ebee]

Where I live might or or might not be typical in some respects.
Lancashire/Yourkshire Border areas (near Burnley and near to Pendle Hill).
Traditional Cotton Mill Towns from the days when "Cotton was King" half the Town (excluding my house was showing in the cencus maps) was showing on those maps and the other half was not. So my home built around 1910.

I reckon the houses were originally "wired fo gas" as we used to say - in other words no electric supply only gas and water .
Mostly terraced houses and built for the cotton workers and managers and senior managers.
We were taught that most towns had their own local electric supply provided by the Councils themselves and probably DC mains.
They began to be revamped to more centralised areas and eventually run by the old boards - Manweb/Norweb/YEB.
Initially when many homes were connected to electricity they might or might not have some lights electric but still had gas mantles for lighting and the majority of worker homes had 1 socket groud floor and 1 socket first floor to serve the whole of the house.

I remember my manager at work in the low 80s his wife told him his mother in law had a very large electric bill and was very worried about paying it.
He eventually realised one vital thing - his mother in law had no electric supply she had all gas!
He told his wife to tell her mum just to ignore it but no they sorted it all out at the local Norweb showrooms - obviously a big mistake she was being billed at all.
So, a few, very few people had no electric at all even that late on.

anyway - back to the plot - most homes had only single phase but some homes the end of the terrace had three phase, A lot of these became the tradition corner shop or GPs surgeries or Dentists etc etc.

One shop end of terrace I worked on needed the cut out moving from ground floor to cellar oner of the two shortend the live incomming PILC by removing the sheathing and baring the ends , live, 2 reds and one black and exclaimed to his mate " hoh its 2 lives for greater current so I will join them together his mate stopped him and tested all voltage combinations, Black to each red was 240, Red to Red was 415 volts, it was 2 phases from the 3 phase supply.

Very large houses also might have had 3 phase too.

 

[morqthana]

You forget that you don't need 3P loads to justify a 3P supply.

No, I don't forget that.

Nor do I forget that if there are no 3P loads then a 3PDB is not necessary - 3 x SP CUs will be fine. Or 1 if it has multiple sections.

 

[SimonH2]

Quite. Hence why you should leave gas work, or anything really, to the competent

You miss the point, how do you ensure that even the best trained gas engineer doesn't have any unknown unknowns ? You can't of course, therefore even the best trained gas Safe engineer can't do gas work. Yes, that's reductio ad absurdum, but you brought up the unknown unknowns

Nor do I forget that if there are no 3P loads then a 3PDB is not necessary - 3 x SP CUs will be fine. Or 1 if it has multiple sections.

As long as you have an upstream multi-pole isolator to comply with 462.1.201

 

[denso13]

miss the point, how do you ensure that even the best trained gas engineer doesn't have any unknown unknowns ?

Take the example about being trained on and fitting natural gas hobs. There are no unknown unknowns. If you come across any issues then the training means you know how to deal with them.

Different to the have a go hero DIYer, who wouldn't have a clue

 

[SimonH2]

Take the example about being trained on and fitting natural gas hobs. There are no unknown unknowns. If you come across any issues then the training means you know how to deal with them.

Read that out aloud to yourself. Then consider all the things your expert gas fitter won't be an expert in.
Will he be expert in the chemistry and physics of resin bonded wood chips ? No ? So unknown unknowns there then.
Will he be an expert in metallurgy ? No ? So more unknown unknowns.
Will he be an expert in electrical distribution systems ? No ? So yet more unknown unknowns.
This latter one is particulary relevant to the thread - I bet he won't have the skills or equipment to test that the lecky supply is safe and conformant to standards. My experience is that across multiple jobs*, the engineers never tested the electrical supply for safety.

Yes, less unknown unknowns than a DIY person, but if you think there aren't any unknown unknowns then you are seriously deluded.

* boiler replacements - including having to be told to replace the socket he'd removed because he didn't understand the manual and thought it said an FCU had to be used. Hob replacements. And many safety checks and services - in over two decades as a landlord I have never seen any electrical check performed by any of the gas engineers. Not once !

 

[morqthana]

I know what my preference is.

Nothing wrong with people having preferences, with expressing them, with campaigning for them.

But what nobody must ever do is to misrepresent or misstate facts in order to promote the idea that their preferences are the way things actually are.