FCU's and Kitchens

[sstead]

Hi everyone.

I have a small issue that I can't find an answer to.

Basically, spurs off ring mains in kitchens are bad (in fact some people argue spurs are bad full stop).

I am fitting 3 x FCU's in my kitchen above the worktops, each connected to the ring main, with another 2.5 T&E cable running from each FCU in to a cupboard below to feed dishwasher, washer and tumble dryer. So each FCU has 3 cables to connect.

This means that each of those appliance sockets connected to these FCU's is now regarded as a spur since it's now split from the ring. Rules state no more than one spur in a kitchen.

Confused. How are these appliances supposed to be connected?

Hope someone can clear it up.

Many thanks in advance.

Steve.

 

[ebee]

"Rules state no more than one spur in a kitchen."

I don`t know where you got that from and who`s rules you are folowing.

So far as our national wining rules/regs are concerned
One unfused spur per point on ring and each spur may be connected to the origin (fuseway in distribuition board) or to an existing point on the ring or to the ring itself.

Each spur is limited to one twin or one single unfused socket or one fused connection unit.

The fused connection unit (switched or unswitched) may be connected as part of the ring itself or as a spur

 

[sstead]

Thanks for the reply ebee.

I can't locate my research which led me to believe that only one spur was allowed in a kitchen. Nethertheless, here's what wiki states:


It is not permitted to have more spurs than sockets on the ring, and it is considered bad practice by most electricians to have spurs in a new installation (some think they are bad practice in all cases).


Since the kitchen is being re-wired, this is the bit that is confusing. I will have 3 spurs, which is 3 too many according to the above

 

[chivers67]

You have fused spurs as opposed to unfused spurs, the only issue is the work you are doing is notifiable under Part P

 

[sstead]

Thanks to chivers67!

I realise I'm doing it correctly per se, but I just wondered why an FCU powering an appliance below the worktop isn't considered a spur when we all know it is lol. Anyway, I guess I can give up with knowing why and just do it.

I'm running the cables, an electrician will be certifying it as per part P.

Cheers

 

[JohnW2]

I realise I'm doing it correctly per se, but I just wondered why an FCU powering an appliance below the worktop isn't considered a spur when we all know it is lol.

If the FCU is wired as part of the ring, then it is NOT a spur - the cable from the FCU to the appliance is no more a 'spur' than is the cable going from an appliance to a plug which is plugged into a socket on the ring. However, if the FCU is 'separate' from the ring (i.e.connected to ring with a single cable) then it is a spur.

I'm running the cables, an electrician will be certifying it as per part P.

I imagine that others will comment on that statement!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Since the kitchen is being re-wired, this is the bit that is confusing. I will have 3 spurs, which is 3 too many according to the above

So you don't have any sockets in the kitchen apart from the ones under the worktops for the appliances?

Why do you want FCUs above the worktops?

Maybe you should let a competent electrician do the design.

I'm running the cables, an electrician will be certifying it as per part P.

You have definitely found one who is prepared to do that?

If not then it is you who needs to be prepared...

... to be disappointed, because it doesn't work like that. You cannot do the design and partial installation and then get an electrician to come along and take responsibility for your work, and to certify on official documentation that he actually did all of the design and installation and that it all complies with the regulations.

And if you have found someone, then he is the ONLY person you should be asking all these questions, not us, because it's his signature that will be going on the certificates, not ours.

 

[sstead]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I wasn't sure whether they were classed as spurs. I guess not. Your example made much sense

There are double sockets above the worktops every 2 metres as per guidelines.

FCU's are being used for the socket below the worktops because you can't fit sockets at that level without an inline fuse. That's my understanding anyway. I am locating the FCU's above the worktops because otherwise I may as well just do away with them and have ringmain sockets at that level.

That's also where all electricians I have seen place them and it's where I see them in every kitchen I have been in

A kitchen fitter of mine does the same thing, runs the cables and get's them tested and passed afterwards. Unfortunately he's on holiday so couldn't query the FCU's and I don't know who passes them for him.

 

[riveralt]

There are double sockets above the worktops every 2 metres as per guidelines.

You will have to help me out here, what guidelines are these - I would have though that you put the sockets where you need them rather than every 2 metres.

That's also where all electricians I have seen place them and it's where I see them in every kitchen I have been in

Electricians are you sure there not...

A kitchen fitter of mine does the same thing, runs the cables and get's them tested and passed afterwards. Unfortunately he's on holiday so couldn't query the FCU's and I don't know who passes them for him.

Ah that explains everything, kitchen fitters masquarading as electricians - and an electrician breaking the rules - perfect examples to follow you should go far

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is becoming normal practice (fashion) to have FCUs above the worktop for the appliances below.

However, if you don't want them you don't have to have them.

It may be a good idea for switches there to isolate the appliance in an emergency but the fuse isn't really necessary as there will be one in the plug.

I would suggest that kitchen fitters just follow one set of instructions and do the same everywhere without thinking or considering the customers' wishes.

 

[chivers67]

Courtesy of RF Ligtings photobucket

 

[JohnW2]

It may be a good idea for switches there to isolate the appliance in an emergency but the fuse isn't really necessary as there will be one in the plug.

Indeed - provided there is a plug. However, if my very limited exposure is anything to go by, another increasing fashion is not to have a plug/socket for the appliance but, rather, just some sort of flex outlet plate/box, with the appliance hard-wired into it. I personally can't really see any point or advantage in doing that, just a reduction in convenience (when the appliance needs to be moved, removed or replaced).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Indeed - provided there is a plug. However, if my very limited exposure is anything to go by, another increasing fashion is not to have a plug/socket for the appliance but, rather, just some sort of flex outlet plate/box, with the appliance hard-wired into it. I personally can't really see any point or advantage in doing that, just a reduction in convenience (when the appliance needs to be moved, removed or replaced).

I agree, of course.

Even then I would prefer an FCU below the worktop.

 

[JohnW2]

Even then I would prefer an FCU below the worktop.

The argument against that appears to be that then one has to pull out the appliance and grovel around behind it to replace the fuse. It seems a pretty pathetic argument to me - for a start, the same is, of course, true of the fuse in a plug and, in any invent, a blown fuse (in either plug or FCU) almost certainly means that the appliance needs to be removed for inspection, testing, repair or replacement!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well...

I had a fuse go in the plug of a washing machine a few weeks ago. The machine had not been exhibiting any signs of problems.

I wonder how many people would do what I did, which was to replace the fuse and see what happened, rather than immediately start dismantling it?

And then, when it carried on working fine with the new fuse, I wonder how many people would shrug, rather than start dismantling it looking for a problem?