Fitting ensuite shower

[chriselevate]

Check/remember the location of any under floor pipes, don’t drill holes in them!

Good point! Will do!

The plaster MUST be fully dry before you tank/tile, 2 weeks for a skim over boards. Prime the plaster with BAL Prime APD before applying the tanking, tile straight over the tanking, no primer required.

I think the kit comes with the BAL Prime APD but I'll check and buy some if not.

What type of tray is it stone resin or GRP? Access after installation is always going to be difficult if not impossible from above with low profile trays & no detachable plinth – they look naff anyway. Often the only way is to cut a 100-150mm round hole in the ceiling below, install the tray, trap & connect the pipe work & then repair & fill the ceiling, done well you won’t see it.

The tray I bought is a bathstore SMC molded. It's the the one featured here (http://www.bathstore.com/products/basics-square-shower-tray-900-x-900-2525.html) other the fact that it's 900 x 800cm (rather than 900 x 900 as pictured). I also bought the fast flow waste set for it too. I hear what you're saying with the waste access issue. I've actually cut the ply just infront of the tray so this should enable me to get my hand underneath, fit the waste and the lay the next sheet of ply down.
Like this:

Obviously once tiled the only way then to get to the waste will be to cut a hole in the ceiling of the room below (like you said) - let's hope that'll not have to happen! Any tips for fitting the tray? Any tips with fitting the waste pipe to the tray? I should be using Dow Corning to seal it in I guess?

You should acrylic prime the edges & underside of the ply before laying, screws every 150-200mm max & no unsupported edges. WBP won’t come treated as far as I know; don’t know why one side is darker might be due weathering. Do not prime the tile surface unless your tile adhesive manufacturer recommends it, BAL don’t.

Brilliant. I think I'll be using BAL products for the whole job to be honest as we've a topps tiles pretty near by. Are they exempt from the "don't buy shed products" or would you go elsewhere? What sort of dicount should I be looking for from them as I know their prices are quite high and they seem happy to knock down their prices to compete with online prices.

Thanks again for your help,

Really appreciate it.

 

[Karis]

The website says it’s a resin molding; the installation recommends either a 15mm weak mortar mix or tile adhesive but I would use mortar. They also have installation instructions which you might find useful; http://www.bathstore.com/files/KERRIDGE/44400005060/INSTALL.pdf

Fit the trap to the tray before you fit the tray then all you have to do is connect the pipe work whilst doing contortions under the floor. Some also seal the tray to the walls with silicone but I don't, if you spread it about too much not much will stick to it including tile adhesive! Thoroughly test for water tightness BEFORE you fit the adjacent ply panel & tiles.

I don’t know any DIY shed that sells BAL but it’s one of the best if it’s used correctly. It is one of the more expensive brands & Topps are notorious for overcharging if you’re DIY & walk in off the street. Best thing is to list what you want & then ring or go online to try & negotiate a trade discount; but sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. Better option is to seek out an independent regional trade tile outlet; they are usually located on small trading estates. There are also on-line outlets which are much, much cheaper but unless you can collect, you have to factor in the delivery charge unless you can hit their free delivery quota, if they have one.

 

[chriselevate]

The website says it’s a resin molding; the installation recommends either a 15mm weak mortar mix or tile adhesive but I would use mortar. They also have installation instructions which you might find useful; http://www.bathstore.com/files/KERRIDGE/44400005060/INSTALL.pdf

Thanks for this. I can't get the link to work unfortunately, not sure why. When you say a weak mortar mix you mean 15mm 5:1 soft sand and cement? You drop the tray on and spirit level it whilst wet? Or how do you keep it from going everywhere? I guess I should acrylic prime the part the tray is going onto? When you say acrylic primer do you mean http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pai...Acrylic Water Based Primer/d150/sd3006/p31900 or this sort of thing http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pai...e Acrylic Primer Undercoat/d150/sd3006/p91298 is that a good price etc?

I'll photograph the pipe work I've done when I go home and see what you think to it and if you think I should change or replumb it in anyway. I don't want to risk it leaking as you said! Good idea fitting it all out of position and leave a simple connection to make when put into place - I'm not a great contortionist!

Our local Topps seem to be happy with doing deals so I'll pull of some web prices and then go in to see if they'll match them or do similar deals.

 

[Karis]

Thanks for this. I can't get the link to work unfortunately, not sure why.

Works fine for me; sometimes it’s a pop up blocker you’ve got installed that prohibits the site, try holding down the Alt key when clicking on the link (or is it the Ctrl key )

When you say a weak mortar mix you mean 15mm 5:1 soft sand and cement?
You drop the tray on and spirit level it whilst wet? Or how do you keep it from going everywhere?

Manufacturer says 5:1 mix but 6:1 would be OK. Use a dryish mix or it will end up everywhere, check the tray has an inbuilt fall to the waste outlet & lay the tray level in both directions. If no inbuilt fall, you will need to adjust the tray level so it will drain to the waste but you don’t want too much fall.

I guess I should acrylic prime the part the tray is going onto?

Don’t prime the top of the ply or the water from the mortar won’t soak in & it’ll take an age to firm up; leave the tray at least 12 hours before you stand on it.

When you say acrylic primer do you mean http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pai...Acrylic Water Based Primer/d150/sd3006/p31900 or this sort of thing http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pai...e Acrylic Primer Undercoat/d150/sd3006/p91298 is that a good price etc?

No I wouldn’t use either of those, they are primarily decorating primers; for sealing the underside of the ply & priming raw plaster/plasterboard before tiling with powder adhesive, use the Bal Prime APD your going to need under the WP1 tanking; http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/prime-apd

 

[chriselevate]

That PDF seems to be loading fine today! Strange!

You mentioned the othe day about the joists and joins in the ply? What is the advice on this abs the limits? I'll lift the oly and check the location before fitting the tray that's all. Would you recommend filling the joists up with insulation to help noise and heat by the way? The room is cold abdthere not very good sound insulation currently that room and downstairs.

The tray instructions say prime the back of the tray? Will I be ok without? Is it fairly easy to bed the tray onto the ply using the 6:1 mix? You said keep it fairly dry.

One this is in and sealed and the shower area tanked I can tile? Brilliant! Would you tile down to it or up to it etc? What size and profile notched trowel for floor and walls would you use? I think you listed the adhesive so I'll check back? Have you?
When you mentioned the tanking and if their are service pipes I didn't quite follow what you ment. I have the water and mains coming out of the wall and the electric shower unit will cover this hole. What is the advice in this situation? You can probably see the hole in the wall from the OP photo.

I went into topps and they said they do a deal on third bal products! Yes!!

Any idea how to fit the low level waste? Would you silicone the toy and bottom and assemble? I'll take a look at the pipe work she I pull the ply up and see what it's like if that's ok?

Thanks again for your help

 

[Karis]

You mentioned the othe day about the joists and joins in the ply? What is the advice on this abs the limits? I'll lift the ply and check the location before fitting the tray that's all.

The actual thickness of ply you need depends on the joist size/pitch/span. In most cases you can get away with 18mm in light load/use bathrooms but sometimes 22mm or even 25mm is required. Another alternative is to beef up the joists. All joints I the ply must be supported ether along the centre line of a joist or using noggins, you can get away without noggins on the two unsupported edges of the room providing it’s not going to be walked on to any degree & there is no static load. The edge must be fully supported at door thresholds.

Would you recommend filling the joists up with insulation to help noise and heat by the way? The room is cold abdthere not very good sound insulation currently that room and downstairs.

Fibre insulation will make little difference to noise transmission. Under floor insulation tends to restrict heat rising from the room below if it is heated, what’s below the bathroom floor, is cold coming up from below?

The tray instructions say prime the back of the tray? Will I be ok without? Is it fairly easy to bed the tray onto the ply using the 6:1 mix? You said keep it fairly dry.

Link doesn’t seem to be working for me either today; can’t remember why they said to prime but I nearly always fit stone resin trays.

One this is in and sealed and the shower area tanked I can tile? Brilliant! Would you tile down to it or up to it etc?

For the bulk of the wall, you should always tile upwards. Tile layout depends on the room & size of tiles, if everything is plumb & square sometimes you can start with a full tile directly off the tray (leaving a 2mm gap for silicone) but if it’s going to be less than a full tile or the tiles will have to be trimmed if things are out of kilter then you tile up from a level batten & finish the bottom run last using trimmed tiles & temporary spacers to support them.

What size and profile notched trowel for floor and walls would you use? I think you listed the adhesive so I'll check back? Have you?

You need a solid adhesive bed in wet areas, use a round notch trowel, 10mm x 5mm deep, at 12.5mm centres. You could use a smaller 6 or 8mm square notch in dry areas, if you want to buy additional trowels. But the tile base must be flat, otherwise use the same 10mm round notch trowel.

When you mentioned the tanking and if their are service pipes I didn't quite follow what you ment. I have the water and mains coming out of the wall and the electric shower unit will cover this hole. What is the advice in this situation? You can probably see the hole in the wall from the OP photo.

If you have concealed service pipes or a recessed mixer valve, the back of the board could be exposed to water if there is a leak. A waterproof tile backer board will be unaffected but plasterboard will be vulnerable; tanking the tile face of plasterboard will have no benefit in this case as it’s the back of the board at risk.

Would you silicone the top and bottom and assemble?

Generally yes but check the manufacturer’s instructions.

 

[chriselevate]

Hi Karis,

Thanks again for getting back to me and the help you've given. I have a bit of a problem that I just can't get to the bottom of... HELP.... please!

I thought it'd be a simple case of lifting the ply that I laid (18mm - you were right) 2 years ago but I've realised that I had to move the stud wall (to the right of the photo's below) to make the room smaller for the tray we bought (don't ask.... it's been a nightmare this ensuite!!! Damp proofing... moving walls... taking out ceiling and re-plastered - last night!). As the wall has been moved it's now sitting ON the ply!

As you can see in the pics below I've cut along the joist to release a sheet of it to get into (obviously putting back I'll use noggins to support the edge - is there a recommendation for the wood type and size for noggins by the way?) I could cut out the piece of ply you could see but would rather not.

I guess the problem is that the bottom side and edges haven't had BAL prime APD applied to them

The next problem is that plumbing of that waste pipe. What on earth shall I do? I photographed it the exact position that it goes in under the ply so you can see what I'm facing! (the small valve on it is an anti gargle valve which I don't know if I need actually?!)

Thanks so much for anything you can suggest to me so I can get cracking tomorrow.

Appreciate it a lot.

Any idea what to do to rescue this situation and get me onto the next level?

I've found the instructions for the shower tray by and have photo'd them here:

 

[Karis]

Noggins go between two adjacent joists under the unsupported edges of the ply & for those you need to use 4” x 2”. What you need there isn’t a noggin, just a length of batten sistered against the joist to support the edge of the ply. As there is no unsupported span (between adjacent joists) involved, you can use much smaller timber & a lump of 2” x 1” will do as long as you screw fix it every 2”. Stagger the screws around the centre though don’t put them in a straight line.

I think you’ve cut the hole for the waste in the wrong place! There is usually enough space for it to sit under the tray & above the floor & you cut a hole to one side for the elbow to go down through the floor & connect up to a below floor waste run. All need do is elongate the hole to accommodate the elbow taking the waste below floor level but you obviously won’t be able to orientate it as shown in the photo as the joist will be in the way! How is the waste run under the floor? I assume it runs with the joist line!

 

[chriselevate]

Noggins go between two adjacent joists under the unsupported edges of the ply & for those you need to use 4” x 2”.

I guess here you mean 4" down and 2" across? So the joining edge sits on the 2" part?

What you need there isn’t a noggin, just a length of batten sistered against the joist to support the edge of the ply. As there is no unsupported span (between adjacent joists) involved, you can use much smaller timber & a lump of 2” x 1” will do as long as you screw fix it every 2”. Stagger the screws around the centre though don’t put them in a straight line.

Ok that's fine I know what you mean. You only mean to sister it on the far right joist though don't you? The two joists on the left hand side are fine aren't they? Your advice is also to screw every 2" in a "zig-zag" line rather than a straight line?

This is a photo of where I think you mean "sister a piece of 2" x 1"" and again you mean have it 1" at the top and 2" deep?

I think you’ve cut the hole for the waste in the wrong place! There is usually enough space for it to sit under the tray & above the floor & you cut a hole to one side for the elbow to go down through the floor & connect up to a below floor waste run. All need do is elongate the hole to accommodate the elbow taking the waste below floor level but you obviously won’t be able to orientate it as shown in the photo as the joist will be in the way! How is the waste run under the floor? I assume it runs with the joist line!

Here is where the waste runs into/out of the room:

I think I went past the waste and back to it in order to put that valve on?! Should I just put one right angle on it (McAlpine brand) and run it straight in without the valve on it? And elongate the round hole I've got already to allow the waste trap to lift up to the shower tray? Like this:

If you need to see the outside it looks like this:

I rather think I put the valve on it as I was worried that flushing the toilet (as there's no stack outside for the ensuite) I'd suck water out of the trap and it'd gargle etc?!

One last thing... as I can't get under the boards now what shall I do about the BAL Prime APD underneath and on the edges? It this going to be a problem?

 

[Karis]

I guess here you mean 4" down and 2" across? So the joining edge sits on the 2" part?

Yes

You only mean to sister it on the far right joist though don't you?

Yes

The two joists on the left hand side are fine aren't they?

Yes

Your advice is also to screw every 2" in a "zig-zag" line rather than a straight line?

Yes

This is a photo of where I think you mean "sister a piece of 2" x 1"" and again you mean have it 1" at the top and 2" deep?

Yes

Here is where the waste runs into/out of the room:
I think I went past the waste and back to it in order to put that valve on?! Should I just put one right angle on it (McAlpine brand) and run it straight in without the valve on it? And elongate the round hole I've got already to allow the waste trap to lift up to the shower tray? Like this:

Run it as your second photo otherwise the joist will be in the way.

I rather think I put the valve on it as I was worried that flushing the toilet (as there's no stack outside for the ensuite) I'd suck water out of the trap and it'd gargle etc?!

It will as you’ve got it now. You really need to fit a vented stack on the outside or you will be sucking the sink & shower traps all the time & will also contravene Building Regulations. You could fit Hepvo valves to both sink & shower (I think the McAlpine trap is similar) but you really would be much better off with vented stack. As you already have an open stack outside the bathroom, that will take care of positive ventilation so an easy alternative (to save fitting another full height open stack) would be to fit a stub stack (above the sink which is the highest flood point) with a Durgo valve on top to take care of negative ventillation; you can get Durgo valves suitable for exterior use.

One last thing... as I can't get under the boards now what shall I do about the BAL Prime APD underneath and on the edges? It this going to be a problem?

You would normally seal as a matter of course but with a suspended floor above heated living accommodation, moisture ingress to the underside of the ply (which could make it curl/warp is unlikely so I would forget about it.

 

[chriselevate]

Thanks for all that Karis... I think I'm on the right track now then

Regarding the stack - I remember when buying the property it was a concern that there wasn't a ventilated stack on the ensuite but someone at some point said "actually you'll get away with that it'll be fine" the survey was fine too. I was very dubious from the start though!

When you say:

It will as you’ve got it now. You really need to fit a vented stack on the outside or you will be sucking the sink & shower traps all the time & will also contravene Building Regulations.

and..

You could fit Hepvo valves to both sink & shower (I think the McAlpine trap is similar) but you really would be much better off with vented stack.

You wouldn't bother doing the above but you'd rather do the next bit? (INSTEAD)

As you already have an open stack outside the bathroom, that will take care of positive ventilation so an easy alternative (to save fitting another full height open stack) would be to fit a stub stack (above the sink which is the highest flood point) with a Durgo valve on top to take care of negative ventillation; you can get Durgo valves suitable for exterior use.

Can I pick something like this up from one of the sheds? Can you point out what it is and what modifications I'd need to make outside in order to do this? All of it can be done from the outside I guess so I can continue for the time being with laying the floor and fitting the ensuite etc?

Here a close up of what I'll have to play with:

Could I also finalise how you'd fit the shower tray now I've found the instruction sheet that came with the tray?

What would you site it on? Would you treat the bottom the shower tray at all?

Thanks again

 

[Karis]

You need to replace the bend with branch - http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/110mm-Push-fit-Soil/110mm-Soil-Branch-92.5dg.htm

Fit a section of straight pipe, - http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/110...e-Socket-Soil-Vent-Pipe-(SVP)-x-3m-length.htm

Open vented stacks must terminate at least 900mm above any window or opening within 3m. If you fit a stub stack it must terminate above the highest flood point (the rim of the sink) & if there are any windows or openings as above fit an Automatic Air Admittance Valve (Durgo) suitable for external use - http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/250709227671?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla

You should be able to get the fittings from any DIY shed or builder’s merchant, the external AAAV you may have to hunt around a bit for.

For the shower tray, just follow the manufacturer’s instructions; as I said, I usually fit stone resin trays & sit them on a weak mortar mix. The instructions say bed on silicone but the website link (stil brocken) said you can also use a weak mortar mix so the choice is yours. The instructions don’t mention priming & I don’t prime the underside of the tray.

 

[chriselevate]

You need to replace the bend with branch - http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/110mm-Push-fit-Soil/110mm-Soil-Branch-92.5dg.htm[/QUOTE]

Would this one be fine? http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Roofing & Drainage/Soil & Vent/Branch 110mm 92.5/d250/sd2849/p71300 am I going to struggle to find this part in white by the way? Will I need to paint it in the end?

Fit a section of straight pipe, - http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/110...-Soil-Vent-Pipe-(SVP)-x-3m-length.htm[/QUOTE]

Is it simply a length of pipe I'm looking for here or does it need to have a vent or fittings with it?

Open vented stacks must terminate at least 900mm above any window or opening within 3m. If you fit a stub stack it must terminate above the highest flood point (the rim of the sink) & if there are any windows or openings as above fit an Automatic Air Admittance Valve (Durgo) suitable for external use - http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/2507...xedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla[/QUOTE]

So I'm going for 900mm (almost 1m) above the ensuite shower in this case? And I could order the product you've listed above from ebay? That's a pretty good price etc? Is this one in white (so I don't have to paint it) exactly the same? If so I'll order it today for delivery. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110mm-Ext...DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item19c9af5c72

For the shower tray, just follow the manufacturer’s instructions; as I said, I usually fit stone resin trays & sit them on a weak mortar mix. The instructions say bed on silicone but the website link (stil brocken) said you can also use a weak mortar mix so the choice is yours. The instructions don’t mention priming & I don’t prime the underside of the tray.

The tray is a little "squeaky" when I stand on it. I guess when I tank right down to the floor, silicone the ply it's standing on and then silicone round the tray (as best as I can so it doesn't affect the tiles) then tile and silicone to seal do you think it'll go away? I guess there's slight movement and it's caused from the tray touching the PB slightly at points.

Looking at products, I have these products left (bought from a tile outlet and not screwfix btw!)
http://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-keraquick-tile-adhesive-5kg-grey/86943
and
http://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-latex-plus-1-5kg/48884

Will these be ok for the floor and wall tiles? My wall tiles are quite a light cream ceramic tiles so I wondered if they would show through?

For the grout I'll need to buy some cream coloured grout from Topps tiles - do I need: http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod3016/section173/Bal-Microflex-Wall-Grout-Ivory-35KG.html or http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod3000/section173/Bal-Superflex-Wall-Grout-Ivory-35KG.html ? I'm guessing I need the "microban" one?

Thanks again

 

[Karis]

Would this one be fine? http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Roofing & Drainage/Soil & Vent/Branch 110mm 92.5/d250/sd2849/p71300

Should be OK & I would re-route the sink waste into the side of the new branch so it has it’s own connection to the stack. If you leave it tee’d into the shower run then using the shower will siphon the sink trap unless you fit a Hepvo valve.

am I going to struggle to find this part in white by the way? Will I need to paint it in the end?

They are mostly in grey or black so you probability will have to paint if you want it to match.

Is it simply a length of pipe I'm looking for here or does it need to have a vent or fittings with it?

Yes, it should slot straight into the branch & the AAAV will fit into the top of that.

So I'm going for 900mm (almost 1m) above the ensuite shower in this case? And I could order the product you've listed above from ebay? That's a pretty good price etc? Is this one in white (so I don't have to paint it) exactly the same?

Same make so I guess so.

The tray is a little "squeaky" when I stand on it. I guess when I tank right down to the floor, silicone the ply it's standing on and then silicone round the tray (as best as I can so it doesn't affect the tiles) then tile and silicone to seal do you think it'll go away? I guess there's slight movement and it's caused from the tray touching the PB slightly at points.

Impossible to say without looking at it; I always fit quality stone resin trays rather than GRP, they never flex or squeak.

Looking at products, I have these products left (bought from a tile outlet and not screwfix btw!)
http://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-keraquick-tile-adhesive-5kg-grey/86943
and
http://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-latex-plus-1-5kg/48884

Will these be ok for the floor and wall tiles?

For suspended floors & any type of wall panels, you must use a flexible adhesive. Personally I would use a proprietary flexible adhesive rather than mess about with latex additives - BAL Rapidset Flexible http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/rapidset-flexible or SPF http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/single-part-flexible or Kearaflex.

For solid walls & floors, the Keraquick will be OK on it’s own.

My wall tiles are quite a light cream ceramic tiles so I wondered if they would show through?

If the tiles are glazed ceramic they shouldn’t suffer staining or bleed through.

For the grout I'll need to buy some cream coloured grout from Topps tiles - do I need: http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod3016/section173/Bal-Microflex-Wall-Grout-Ivory-35KG.html or http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod3000/section173/Bal-Superflex-Wall-Grout-Ivory-35KG.html ?

I'm guessing I need the "microban" one?

I would use the Microflex or Microflex wide joint for the wall tiles & Superflex Wide Joint – http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/superflex-wide-joint for the floor tiles.

 

[Karis]

Just to add; if you don't have any window or opening within 900mm below or within 3m sideways, you don't need the Durgo valve, just fit an open vent cap to the top of the new stack.