Fitting ensuite shower

[chriselevate]

Hi guys,

I've rekitted a very tired and warn out ensuite shower room in our master bedroom. I'm ready to put in the shower tray, tile and fit the shower screen.

Could I have some advice in what should be done to do this please?

I have taken the floorboards up and fitted with waterproof ply as I'm going to tile to finish the floor. The walks are freshly plasterboarded and skimmed. I've bought a tanking kit to waterproof the walls of the shower before tiling. I've only bought enough tiles to do the shower cubicle area as couldn't afford more tiles.

What order would you do stuff? How shall I fit the tray? It it ok sitting it in the floor? Do you tile behind it and floor tile under it etc? I guess not? How do I seal it in etc? Obviously I don't want it to leak at all.

Thanks for your help and advice

 

[Burnerman]

One of the first things to consider is the fall of the drain - the tray may need to be on a slight upstand to allow this.
Make access to the drain if at all possible, just in case it leaks in the future, and use good quality fittings such as McAlpine.
The tray will bed down fine on the ply floor, but cast stone trays without feet are best.
As for the walls, consider using cement board Aquapanel to tile on to, make sure the tray is tight to the wall....no gaps at the corners.
As for cements and grout, use BAL powder or ready mixed products.
Use a quality sealant for tray to tile - Dow Corning or Mapei....no skimping here!
Consider using a coloured grout - white always discolours after a while.
Naturally enough, the shower screen goes in last.
Just a few pointers which I hope could help.
John

 

[chriselevate]

Hi john,

This all sounds REALLY good. thanks for these tips. I've added you as a friend on here and wondered if I could message you specific details about the project to see what you think/suggest. I'm going to try to spend some time on it at the weekend trying to get it sorted.

Would that be ok?

Thanks

 

[Karis]

Plastering areas where your going to tile is not necessary & not a good idea as it restricts tile weight which can be a problem if you’re planning on using large format tiles. If using powder cement adhesive (a must with tiles larger than around 250mm), gypsum plaster or plasterboard must be acrylic primed to avoid a reaction between the cement & gypsum. Using a decent cement tile backer board in wet areas is a far better bet than plasterboard, even if it tanked. If you have a recessed mixer valve or pipe work, the back will still be vulnerable to water damage & failure in the event of a leak.

What type of tray do you have? Stone resin should be bedded on a weak mortar mix or they can crack. Fit the tray first & tile down to the top, leaving a 2mm gap for a silicone seal.

 

[chriselevate]

Karis, thanks for this.

I'll put together specific information and photos later and see what you think the best ways forward are. Thanks

 

[chriselevate]

Right here we go....

We have a bathstore shower tray which is SMC molded. It's the the one featured here other the fact that it's 900 x 800cm (rather than 900 x 900 as pictured). I also bought the fast flow waste set for it too.

I have laid the ply floor and screwed it down so it's ready to tile onto with flexible adhesive.

The room has (unfortunately) been plaster-boarded and skimmed and the dimensions are as follows:

(you can see the shower waste in the photo below and currently is lined up perfectly with the cut out on the tray)

Here are the photos of the room so far:

and

As I said previously... I have a tanking kit (approx £90 it cost me!) but I'm happy to change to a different install method if needed. I was also planning for the tray to go directly on the floor but realise this is not the preferred option? As this was the plan I've put the trap onto the waste pipe ready to fit to the tray but realism I'll probably need to probably get a 90 degree McAlpine bend and raise it up.

Your suggestions and advice on how to get this project finished would be fantastic.

The door I have is this one (also from bathstore) http://www.bathstore.com/products/atlas-hinge-door-800-1517.html
You'll be please to hear that I've fitted batons in the wall ready to screw the door into so it gets a good fix rather than into plasterboard and an empty wall!

Could you also have a think about my WC and distance to the towel rail.... it's pretty close! Do I need something like this: or similar http://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-...1xmXcpThdfbvNyhtzgpDRpYTXdhS6kMbkq!1696905990 in order to move it right (towards the sink) so you don't burn your leg on the towel rail when sitting on the toilet?! lol

The tiles we have for the floor are: 33 x 33 and for the wall 40 x 25. I've bought enough to tile the shower enclosure and sink splash backs but couldn't afford more to tile the whole wall! (2.6m high!)

I don't have any adhesive, grout or silicone yet but have a local Screwfix, Toolstation, Topps Tiles and independent tile specialist shop that stock mapei products (as screwfix seem to).

Thanks for your time help and advice on this.

 

[Karis]

Chris; that’s a lot of info & questions in one hit on a Friday night. But straight away I can tell you that you’re going to be in trouble with hanging 40 x 25cm tiles off a plastered wall & the tanking won’t help! I reckon they are going to be 8 - 12mm thick which will almost certainly exceed the 20 kg/sq/m limit for plaster even without adhesive & grout; do you know the actual tile weight per sqm?

Way too late look at your other questions tonight & I’m working away at the weekend so won’t be till Monday until I can have another look.

What have you done with the floor?

 

[chriselevate]

Sorry... thought I'd pop all the questions on here so you had ALL the information and not little bits and bobs.

The wall tiles are 7mm thick (if that helps). I guess the best option would be to rip out the plasterboard (carefully) and replace with cement aquaboard?

This will be easy to do on the dry wall but on the two external walls a little more difficult as they have been membraned, dot and dab and skimmed.

Like this:

The floor has had the FB's up and I've thick laid water/boild proof ply (screwed to the joists with noggins at the joins) ready to tile onto with a flex adhesive - hope this is right.

 

[Karis]

Just a quickie before I leave. 7mm isn’t that thick for tiles that size, do you know the sq/m weight (sometimes it's on the box)? If not, weigh a tile & post back. You shouldn’t just rely on dot & dab for plaster board fixing if you’re going hang heavy tiles off it, the whole lot could end up on the floor! Put some mechanical fixings through into the wall on around a 300mm grid pattern but fix through the adhesive dabs (if you can locate them) or you’ll crack the boards when you tighten the screws. Use through (frame) fixings not wall plugs.

Do you know what size/pitch/span your floor joists are? What is thickness WBP have you used & did you seal the underside & edges before laying it?

 

[chriselevate]

Karis,

Thanks for this. You certainly know your stuff. I'm guessing you're a master tiler as what you're saying makes sense and seems logical. And I really appreciate it.

Ok... answers:
A tile weighs 1.58kg.
I'm guessing you're saying that there is a possibility that I could fit my tray and then use the aquaboard to to lip over the edge of the shower tray. I know this'll make the enclosure smaller but it'll mean that I then have a flat surface to tile onto and I have a waterproof and strong backing to tile onto?

On my brick walls I can drill through the board, damp course (inject silicone into this hole to stop damp ingress) and then drive the mechanical fixings through the board into the wall creating a strong fix? On my partition wall I can screw directly through the board and PB into the wood and screw them firmly there.

The only slight problem with all this would be that the finish (where the shower enclosure stop and the PB starts) there will be a "step" I guess for this I could cut slithers of tile and edge it off like this? Will this look dd or be ok?

I'll look into the floor and let you know the thickness of the WBP ply and the joist width. I guess you're saying that ONE side of the board is treated but not both and obviously where the cuts are it's not treated? Let me know what sealer you are suggesting as I hadn't thought about this!

Thanks again,

No probs is it's at the end of the weekend or next week as I don't think I'll be tiling this weekend at this rate!!!

 

[Karis]

A tile weighs 1.58kg.

Your tiles weigh 15.8kg/sqm & allowing a max of 4 kg/sqm for adhesive & grout will put you below the 20 kg/sqm for tiling over plaster, you should be OK.

I'm guessing you're saying that there is a possibility that I could fit my tray and then use the aquaboard to to lip over the edge of the shower tray.

No need, you will be within the maximum weight for plaster in good condition. Do tank it though as plasterboard is not really suitable in wet areas unless you do. Even then, if you have a recessed shower valve & concealed pipes, the back side will always be vulnerable to water damage in the event of a leak. Tile backer boards are not affected by water & are far superior.

You may just be using the wrong terminology but it’s important you understand Aquaboard is only moisture resistant plasterboard. What is being referred to here is Aquapanel which is a waterproof (in that it won’t disintegrate) cement based tile backer board; both are made by Lafarge.

 

[chriselevate]

Karis thanks for getting back to me and working out the weight for those tiles. I'm glad I'll be within the tolerance to be able to tile onto the tanked room without the need for cement board.

Could you give me an idea of what you think I should be doing now?

I guess the main areas are:
1. Prepare the floor ready to tiles and fit bathroom suite.
2. Fit the shower tray and plumb the waste. (fit it onto a base?)
3. Tile down to the tray and dow corning seal around the tray.
4. Tile the floor all over (I've worked pipes up the wall so there's no need to cut tiles around them - I hear this will stop potential leaks?)
5. Fit shower screen, toilet, sink, towel rail etc.
6. I'm sure there are others you can think of???

I need to know the products you recommend as I'm never sure what grades to us and I guess it's important to make sure it's good stuff so things wont leak?

Thanks again for your help, I really appreicate it.

 

[Karis]

Fit the toilet, sink, bath etc. first using service valves on all the water pipes it makes removing them for tiling (not the bath) & maintenance a doddle in the future. Don’t forget to allow for the thickness of the tiles + 4-6mm for the tile adhesive.

Use a flexible powder cement adhesive for both floor & walls + flexible grout. I use Rapidset but if you’re uncomfortable with a pot life of 40 minutes, use a Single Part Flexible. What are the tiles? When laying natural stone or unglazed/polished porcelain, you may need to seal them before laying & again before grouting, check with supplier or do a porosity test. Use the correct colour adhesive, (white or grey) depending on tile colour.

You must acrylic prime plaster or plaster board when using powder adhesive to avoid the risk of reaction between the Gypsum & cement in the adhesive. Follow adhesive manufacturer’s instructions for priming the ply floor but in many cases it’s not necessary. Use a large format trowel for the floors & a solid thick bed trowel for the walls.

If you use Mapei get the proper trade products not the Buildfix DIY range sold in the sheds. Other brands are BAL (which I use), Webber, Granfix etc. Avoid cheap DIY products, they are mostly inferior.

 

[chriselevate]

Fit the toilet, sink, bath etc. first using service valves on all the water pipes it makes removing them for tiling (not the bath) & maintenance a doddle in the future. Don’t forget to allow for the thickness of the tiles + 4-6mm for the tile adhesive.

As I've run the service pipes up the wall and am not tiling where they are I won't need to cut the tiles to fit will I? I can simply tile the floor, position the furniture and drill the tiles and screw them down? Service valves are a good idea to make the items servicable I guess though.

Use a flexible powder cement adhesive for both floor & walls + flexible grout. I use Rapidset but if you’re uncomfortable with a pot life of 40 minutes, use a Single Part Flexible. What are the tiles? When laying natural stone or unglazed/polished porcelain, you may need to seal them before laying & again before grouting, check with supplier or do a porosity test. Use the correct colour adhesive, (white or grey) depending on tile colour.

Thanks - will do. They are simple ceramic tiles.

You must acrylic prime plaster or plaster board when using powder adhesive to avoid the risk of reaction between the Gypsum & cement in the adhesive. Follow adhesive manufacturer’s instructions for priming the ply floor but in many cases it’s not necessary. Use a large format trowel for the floors & a solid thick bed trowel for the walls.

As I'm taking the shower area, will I need to use a primer before tiliing or just tile onto the dry tanking? It's the BAL tanking I've got.

If you use Mapei get the proper trade products not the Buildfix DIY range sold in the sheds. Other brands are BAL (which I use), Webber, Granfix etc. Avoid cheap DIY products, they are mostly inferior.

Thanks

Can I ask how you would install the shower tray? In the photo I posted you can see that my oringal intention was to sit it on the floor - I don't think this is right though is it? And I think it'd be good to allow access to the waste of it if there's a problem? What's the best thing to do for this?

Oh and can I ask what preperation I need to do to the floor before tiling onto my WPB ply? It seems that one side is darker in colour than the other too - I guess one side is treated and not the other?

Thanks again

 

[Karis]

As I've run the service pipes up the wall and am not tiling where they are I won't need to cut the tiles to fit will I? I can simply tile the floor, position the furniture and drill the tiles and screw them down? Service valves are a good idea to make the items servicable I guess though.

Check/remember the location of any under floor pipes, don’t drill holes in them!

As I'm taking the shower area, will I need to use a primer before tiliing or just tile onto the dry tanking? It's the BAL tanking I've got.

The plaster MUST be fully dry before you tank/tile, 2 weeks for a skim over boards. Prime the plaster with BAL Prime APD before applying the tanking, tile straight over the tanking, no primer required.

Can I ask how you would install the shower tray? In the photo I posted you can see that my oringal intention was to sit it on the floor - I don't think this is right though is it? And I think it'd be good to allow access to the waste of it if there's a problem? What's the best thing to do for this?

What type of tray is it stone resin or GRP? Access after installation is always going to be difficult if not impossible from above with low profile trays & no detachable plinth – they look naff anyway. Often the only way is to cut a 100-150mm round hole in the ceiling below, install the tray, trap & connect the pipe work & then repair & fill the ceiling, done well you won’t see it.

Oh and can I ask what preperation I need to do to the floor before tiling onto my WPB ply? It seems that one side is darker in colour than the other too - I guess one side is treated and not the other?

You should acrylic prime the edges & underside of the ply before laying, screws every 150-200mm max & no unsupported edges. WBP won’t come treated as far as I know; don’t know why one side is darker might be due weathering. Do not prime the tile surface unless your tile adhesive manufacturer recommends it, BAL don’t.