Fitting recessed downlights to some form of panel, help pls

[333rocky333]

The frame aprox 10ft x 2 ft would fix to the main joists supporting the roof.
The board 11 ft x 3ft would then fixed to that after , unless the roof joists are very thin the weight would be distributed.

The board would Overhang by 6inches all round
with a drop of about 2 inches from the ceiling

 

[kilo_4que]

rocky, now your talking matey.

I never knew i had to fit a frame up first, I was under the impression I had to use the hook and chain method

Furthermore, I cant locate the joist which is one of the reasons im doin all this to be honest. I have used my stud detector on other parts of the building and I didnt slip up once however with this part of the building I struggle to detect a single joist.

The joists are 3x3 i think if not a little thicker so would assume they are more than stron enough, its just a matter of finding them

Regarding this frame, What would the frame consist of? is it a timber frame or something?

and how would the panel fix to the frame?

Cheers

 

[ban-all-sheds]

O that wont be a problem as I have a strict policy at my work place of cleaning and dusting everything by end of the week

Firstly, how will you or they clean the top surface of a large panel a few inches from the ceiling?

Secondly - work place. How many people work there? Are you an employee or an employer? Are you absolutely sure that you are competent to comply with all the health and safety legislation regarding the design and installation of electrical items, lighting and elevated constructions fixed to the fabric of the building?

 

[kilo_4que]

Ban so far I have everything inspected at the premises by the local building control. Everything is being completed under their instruction hence the reason i have been involved in this whole palava of insulation also.

So far there have been no concerns raised on the fixture i am intending on fixing.

I actually own the company, which is a small design company with a very small work force, 4 people to be exact.

Regarding cleaning a large panel above, that is not an issue as we have large bendable dusters

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ban so far I have everything inspected at the premises by the local building control. Everything is being completed under their instruction hence the reason i have been involved in this whole palava of insulation also.

So far there have been no concerns raised on the fixture i am intending on fixing.

That's fine then, as long as your Building Control officers are fully conversant with the HASAWA, the EAWR and the CDAMR, and that you are confident that if you've missed anything regarding your legal obligations the council will adequately advise you.

Regarding cleaning a large panel above, that is not an issue as we have large bendable dusters

And they will be suitable for cleaning in areas where there are lights and electrical cables and it will be possible for them to be operated by someone standing on the floor?

 

[kilo_4que]

Ban so far I have everything inspected at the premises by the local building control. Everything is being completed under their instruction hence the reason i have been involved in this whole palava of insulation also.

So far there have been no concerns raised on the fixture i am intending on fixing.

That's fine then, as long as your Building Control officers are fully conversant with the HASAWA, the EAWR and the CDAMR, and that you are confident that if you've missed anything regarding your legal obligations the council will adequately advise you.

Regarding cleaning a large panel above, that is not an issue as we have large bendable dusters

And they will be suitable for cleaning in areas where there are lights and electrical cables and it will be possible for them to be operated by someone standing on the floor?

The inspectors have been screwing at me on all sorts, stuff I wasnt even aware of to be honest. I was told by several people that I could quite simply tell them to buzz off as it the premises are privately owned and all work is internal. However to stay on the safe side and to avoid falling into any kind of legal battle in the future due to uninspected work i decided to place the applications they were so pushy towards especially the thermal element and another I had to place as the walls were more than 25% refurbed. God knows what that was all about but i placed the application anyhoo

Regarding the dusters yes you can very easily use them by standing on the floor, they reach very good heights and are extrememly fluffy. They shouldnt really harm the lighting fixtures or cables as these fixtures come with standing brackets which screw to one side of the light fixtures in order to eliminate this exact potential problem youve highlighted. the bracket elevates the wires so the duster could easily slip underneath

 

[kilo_4que]

These are the type of dusters but ours are on longer handles

http://www.vacuumhospital.com/pages/ecart/essentials/casabella/bend yellow dstr.JPG

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The inspectors have been screwing at me on all sorts, stuff I wasnt even aware of to be honest. I was told by several people that I could quite simply tell them to buzz off as it the premises are privately owned and all work is internal.

If the Building Regulations apply, then they apply - the fact that the premises are privately owned and the work is internal makes no difference....

However to stay on the safe side and to avoid falling into any kind of legal battle in the future due to uninspected work i decided to place the applications they were so pushy towards especially the thermal element and another I had to place as the walls were more than 25% refurbed.

4A - (1) Where a person intends to renovate a thermal element, such work shall be carried out
as is necessary to ensure that the whole thermal element complies with the requirements of
paragraph L1(a)(i) of Schedule 1.
(2) Where a thermal element is replaced, the new thermal element shall comply with the
requirements of paragraph L1(a)(i) of Schedule 1.

God knows what that was all about but i placed the application anyhoo

Should you really be doing controlled work if you don't know what the regulations are?

 

[kilo_4que]

To be honest i dont even know why im discussing this with you as it holds no purpose to this thread or to anyone else for that matter however the work I had done was removal of old plaster and freshening up with new plaster. This apparently I needed an application for. Just because one is not aware of buildin regulations does not mean to say they cannot do the job. In all fairness I doubt many people put an appliucation in for replastering their walls.

Also forgot to mention that the inspector had agreed to what two architects mentioned i.e. that you cannot be forced to submit an application for internal work however said it would affect the possibility of selling the premises at a alter date.

It is ironic how regulations apply to small timers like us companies like Lloyds Pharmacy who previously owned the building got away with the worlds biggest bodgeups such as unsafe suspended ceilings, too steap staircases and highly dangerous wiring.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned I see no reason to be discussing all this anyhow and lets get back to the topic shall we.

 

[333rocky333]

rocky, now your talking matey.

I never knew i had to fit a frame up first, I was under the impression I had to use the hook and chain method

Furthermore, I cant locate the joist which is one of the reasons im doin all this to be honest. I have used my stud detector on other parts of the building and I didnt slip up once however with this part of the building I struggle to detect a single joist.

The joists are 3x3 i think if not a little thicker so would assume they are more than stron enough, its just a matter of finding them

Regarding this frame, What would the frame consist of? is it a timber frame or something?

and how would the panel fix to the frame?

Cheers

What i was trying to say, was fix a 4x2 wood frame securely to the ceiling,
as you said you did not want much of a drop, it will be 2inches.

Your board fits directly to that with enough screws to be secure.
This creates a false celing but with the overhang will make it look more of a feature

Providing you work within the frame size, you could cut the ceiling to locate the joists or fit the noggings as required once the frame is secure reinstate any holes to the same integrity of the old ceiling.
This will not be visible once the board is fitted to the frame , but should be done.

All the wires and lights will be contained then within that false box ceiling.
the only dusting is the six inch overhanging the perimeter where there will be no lights or wires.
This was only a suggestion, problems regarding heat, fixing and any other issues need to be taken into account

I did not want to cut my ceiling so i lowered a section just to fit the lights.

Untitled

• 333rocky333
• 10 Jul 2008
• 1

 

[kilo_4que]

Rocky, so basically what I would be doing is building a frame out of 4x2 timbers which needs to be approx 6 inch shorter on each side in comparrison to the panel i need to hang up.

I fix the frame as best as I can even though I have no exact knowledge of the joists or noggings

Once i get the frame up I can cut appropriate hole(s) to establish where the joists and noggings are which will give me the ability to strengthen the frame further

Following this I fix the panel to the frame, cut the appropriate holes out (which can be done before fixing the panel up) and do the rest

rocky have I got the above correct?

The other two questions I have is that if I have got the above correct is there anything i can put on the outsides of the timbers to allow me to give a better finish i.e. quarter inch plaster board or shall i just leave it as is and prime/paint

Furthermore, once I am to fix the panel to the frame, is there any way of keeping the fixings to the frame descrete. I dont want loads of screws everywhere lol

 

[333rocky333]

Rocky, so basically what I would be doing is building a frame out of 4x2 timbers which needs to be approx 6 inch shorter on each side in comparrison to the panel i need to hang up.

I fix the frame as best as I can even though I have no exact knowledge of the joists or noggings

Once i get the frame up I can cut appropriate hole(s) to establish where the joists and noggings are which will give me the ability to strengthen the frame further

Following this I fix the panel to the frame, cut the appropriate holes out (which can be done before fixing the panel up) and do the rest

rocky have I got the above correct?

The other two questions I have is that if I have got the above correct is there anything i can put on the outsides of the timbers to allow me to give a better finish i.e. quarter inch plaster board or shall i just leave it as is and prime/paint

Furthermore, once I am to fix the panel to the frame, is there any way of keeping the fixings to the frame descrete. I dont want loads of screws everywhere lol

Just one of many ways proberly.
What is suitable you need to decide as you are doing the work.
I can only give you ideas to consider.
The main thing is that it is structurally safe and secure and the fire and acoustic rating of the existing ceiling is not impaired.

Over a 10 foot length there is likely to be good fixings somewhere.
Using hooks and chain there is unlikely to be a good fixing where you need it to be.
As you know roughly where you want the board, you could cut an access to see what is above.
There must be something that the existing is fixed too.
What is up there may determine how big the support frame needs to be, as you need to fix that too it.

If the joists are 2 foot centres , then the frame would be 2 foot wide to fix to it, if the joists go the other way, then you should get at least 4 good fixings over a 10 foot length.

If the board overhangs the frame enough, then due to the height and only a 2 inch gap you proberly would not see the frame finish.
If you did then You could use a beading on it and paint it to make it neater.

Your fittings may require more room above due to the heat that you must decide.

Most of the ones we do in shops are dropped about 12 inches so there is not so much a problem with the heat,the ceilings are some 15 foot high though.

You seem unsure so it may be best to get advise on site from someone who can see the work .
A carpenter would advise you better, or make and install it for you.

Why not try here for some ideas. //www.diynot.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14
Most shopfitters and joiners have done similar I would have thought.

As for fixing the board, it depends on the finish you want, if painted then recess the screws ,fill and sand down.

 

[kilo_4que]

Some great points there Rocky.

I was thinking of keeping the cutout exposed being this structure we are attempting in order to allow "breathing" space for the recessed lights. I was wondering whether this would be a good idea

Regarding recessing the screws and filling, if say for example I was to use fire rated 18mm MDF and use Easi fill to fill the screw holes, dont you think the change in material texture would show up through the paint or would this not be the case once it is fully painted with primer -> First Coat -> Second Coat method

 

[333rocky333]

Do you have a KFC near you.

The new fit out comprises suspended boards above the counters,they are approx 6ft by 4ft wide, sometimes 3 boards to make up 12 foot fitted with about 10 small downlighters.

These are hanging on wires varying from approx 2 to 12 inches long.
They look ok in the shop, but from the side veiw, you see the lampholder wires etc sticking up and the light shining from the back of the fittings.

They seem like mdf with a sort of sprayed on maroon paint finish.

 

[kilo_4que]

no i havent seen the kfc ones but it sounds very similar to the medical centre I saw this feature in