How do you see this installation? Another potential pt P?

[Jonny7]

I'm planning to install some outside lighting around two walls of my bungalow. Ordinarily now, I'd guess that this would be as good an example of a part p qualifier, given that cabling is no longer allowed to be run in the cavity (something I've done on previous properties). So surface mounted cable in either swa or conduit, both pretty unsightly.

So given that it is a bungalow and one with quite a wide soffit, I'm considering fitting ceiling downlighters into the soffit but bathroom rated ones - IP55.

Thing is, as with most of these mains ceiling downlighters the connection is about 50-75mm above the gasketed ceiling join so being in the loft, clearly only 1.00mm T&E need be used I'd have thought. They would be fed via two sensors mounted under the soffits too so cabling would pass through the wooden soffit straight into the connection box. Again, the interface between fitting and soffit being a gasket.

So I would think that whether the above should be installed under part P control or not is very much a matter of opinion... or is it clear cut to those of you more familiar with the regs? I'd be grateful for opinions.

As for the supply of these lights, I'd be loath to supply off the existing lighting circuit, partly because there will be 7 x 50 watt GU halogen bulbs coming on at once and partly because they should be fed from a separate MCB anyway I suspect, which is what I'd propose. That's the tricky part though as there are no spare ways in the CU. Presumably, either fitting an additional CU or replacing the existing one would come under part P regulations? I don't fancy playing about with live tails that's for sure.

 

[securespark]

This is not a Part P job at all (providing you do not wire back to a dedicated circuit in the CU).

For it to be notifiable, the light fittings would have to be not attached to the house. As for cavities, I see no reason why you cannot drill through the wall and run the cable through the wall. Granted, dropping cable down cavities is frowned upon, but running cable through walls is unavoidable.

Two more points:

7 x 50 = 350W = 1.52A at 230V

Most electronic control gear (like dimmers) for GU10's is downrated by 50%.

Check with the PIR manufacturer that it is OK with 525W of GU10's. In all probability, it'll be OK, but it won't hurt to double check.

 

[Jonny7]

Thanks for the reply securespark, so it will be Ok to wire into the existing light circuit. That's good news.

The PIR's are rated at 1Kw each so they should be OK too. Interesting to read that there's a demarkation between outside lighting that is attached to the wall and not, I wasn't aware of that so thanks again.

 

[securespark]

As I understand it from the ODPM, for an outside job to be notifiable work, a cable would have to leave the boundary of the dwelling and traverse the garden, terminating outside the property. Equipment attached to the building is not notifiable, as far as I am aware.

 

[duxster]

this is interesting!

In a similar instance our front door has a large over hang and I was thinking of adding flush mounted lights. The house is new and there is a junction box already there connected to the lighting circuit and a switch inside the house.

Am i right in thinking that I can connect 5 x 20w low voltage IP65 lights (IP65 transformer in the void above) to this connection without any fear of part P?

Cheers

Robert

 

[pdcelec]

without any fear of part P?

Be very careful. MI5 will come round to your house!

 

[securespark]

Yes!

I have spoken to the ODPM at length about this and I have been told that if you want to work on outside electrics, you are free to do so without notification as long as there is an "existing connection point" for you to attach your accessories to.

In your case, the wiring and jb are pre-existing, so you should be OK, as long as the wiring and circuit it is attached to is up to the job.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As I understand it from the ODPM, for an outside job to be notifiable work, a cable would have to leave the boundary of the dwelling and traverse the garden, terminating outside the property. Equipment attached to the building is not notifiable, as far as I am aware.

The only "outside work" which is notifiable is a garden lighting or electric power installation.

I have spoken to the ODPM at length about this and I have been told that if you want to work on outside electrics, you are free to do so without notification as long as there is an "existing connection point" for you to attach your accessories to.

In your case, the wiring and jb are pre-existing, so you should be OK, as long as the wiring and circuit it is attached to is up to the job.

Since a porch light is not a garden lighting or electric power installation, in this case the ODPM are right, but in general, the advice you've quoted is b******s. Instead of speaking to them, you should read the law - see if it says anything about "existing connection points"...

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS, perhaps you might like to speak to the ODPM as your such a blooming expert..

Anyway, the installation is not Part P as has been explained, however if the cable were to be clipped along the outside of the premises then it would be notifiable...simple as that.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, perhaps you might like to speak to the ODPM as your such a blooming expert..

Jim - WTF are you following me around, trying to pick holes in my posts for no good reason? And why you are either incapable of understanding the Building Regulations, or are wilfully misinterpreting them?

Anyway, the installation is not Part P as has been explained

Firstly, that, technically, is not true, since Part P does apply to this work. In order to determine which particular requirements of Part P apply one needs to refer to the Building Regulations - it may be that the work is not notifiable, but that is very much not the same as saying that Part P does not apply.

however if the cable were to be clipped along the outside of the premises then it would be notifiable...simple as that.

I look forward with great interest to you finding text in Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 that says that....

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS..firstly let me say I was not following you about, but as your interpretation of the Building Regs is hap hazard I simply commented on your post. There is no need for you to be paranoid.

Here is Table 1 from Part P

Table 1: Work that need not be notified to building control bodies
Work consisting of:

Replacing any electrical fitting including socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses

Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact (a)

Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (b)

Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (c)

Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation (d) and consists of:
Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit (e)
Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit (e)

Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (f)

Work not in a special location on:
Telephone or extra-low voltage wiring and equipment for the purposes of communications, information technology, signalling, control
and similar purposes

And here is Table 2, the list of special locations

Table 2: Special locations and installations (a)

Special locations:

Locations containing a bath tub or shower basin
Swimming pools or paddling pools
Hot air saunas
Special installations:
Electric floor or ceiling heating systems
Garden lighting or power installations
Solar photovoltaic (PV) power supply systems
Small scale generators such as microCHP units
Extra-low voltage lighting installations, other than pre-assembled, CE-marked lighting sets

Now, if the installer uses their brains, this work is fully completable without invoking Part P notification and this is 100% the case.

Obviously you can do the work in a way where notification would be required, as you can with most electrical tasks about the home..

However I say **** Part P.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Those are reasonably accurate quotes, but they do miss out some important qualifiers. That's what happens when you go to places other than the actual legislation to get information like that. However, none of those qualifiers are relevant here.

As for being haphazard - far from it - I take a consistent and accurate position based on what the law says. Not what leaflets from the ODPM say. Not what Approved Documents from the ODPM say.

But again - that distinction is not relevant in this case.

It seems that you are still confusing the requirement in Part P to notify work, and the other requirements in Part P.

Part P of the Building Regulations applies to all electrical installation work in dwellings and any greenhouses, small detached buildings falling within class VI in Schedule 2 and any extensions of a building falling within class VII in Schedule 2 that receive electricity from a source shared with or located inside a dwelling.

As I said above, and will say again, that does not mean that all such work is notifiable, it just means that Part P applies - i.e.

P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.

P2 Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety.

Given that BS 7671 is not mandatory, I am very surprised that you would seek to claim that legislation which requires electrical installation work to be safe does not apply in all cases.

 

[ebee]

And do not forget that extra low voltage unless preassembled by manufacturer is notifyable anyway

 

[Darkness]

Its nice to live in part of the UK that isn't affected by Part P or is it

I'm not worried.

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS, why are you being a pedantic git, as far as 99.9% of the population are concerned if you say it comes under Part P then you are saying it is Notifiable, when you say it does not come under Part P then you are saying it is not ntoifiable.

Now stop being an arse on your holier than thou Part P soap box as you making your self sound really pedantic and daft..