I hate domestics yet again.

[SUNRAY]

A tricky one today which I haven't resolved as customer did'nt have the time to spare.
The report I was given: switch flashed now doesn't work, I was asked to replace the switch, it's actually a 2G but the second gang is a 1W porch light which I haven't shown for clarity.
It was 2 rooms, knocked into one and has 3 batten holders, 2 are working OK as 2way and confirmed as the 2 connected to the right part of this sketch in I what I initally expected to be a ceiling rose (photo) which I assume is the regular loop in/out, one 100W bulb was blown on arrival and my guess is that caused the flash. The 3rd light is permanently on.
All 3 lights just have a single T&E.
The 2 switches are wired as shown; a 2 way with 3C&E and an intermediate with 2x T&E

I don't know if it will be me returning but I confess at this stage I can't even begin to guess what's happening in JB's.

 

[ericmark]

I see what you mean, triple and earth at one switch one expects to see at next switch, clearly a device some where not found. I had same with my central heating when I moved in to this house, red, yellow, blue at programmer and brown, black, grey at boiler, one core open circuit, clearly some where there must be a junction box, but not found, used a Nest Gen 3 thermostat instead so the pair of wires which work are only 12 volt, power feed and data heat link to thermostat. Did not like the idea of 230 volt to a unknown joint.

Domestics all seem price or repair orientated, with commercial more down to fix it so we don't have same fault again, still down to cost, but includes cost of down time etc.

 

[securespark]

One batten on all the time suggests it could have been erroneously connected to the loop, not the switch.

As for the mismatched cables, is the 2G switch position one of the switches involved?

I had a switch repair to go to where the customer swore blind "it worked up until last week". It was a 3 gang and almost every conductor was in the wrong place, with lamps in series with others. When I looked into it there's no way it ever could have worked. They eventually owned up it was a DIY bitch.

 

[ericmark]

When looking for a central heating problem even my own daughter told me all had been working A1 before and radiators did not warm up in summer, it seems before she bought the house the micro switch in the mid position valve had gone faulty, and they had latched it into bleed position, my son-in-law cleaned out airing cupboard and knocked lever unlatching it, so central heating stopped working. It must have warmed up radiators in the summer when domestic hot water was called for, but she said they never got warm.

 

[SUNRAY]

As for the mismatched cables, is the 2G switch position one of the switches involved?

I had a switch repair to go to where the customer swore blind "it worked up until last week".

Ohhh yes I've had a few of those too

The 3C&E is one half of the 2G but none of this installation has any recent alteration. The several layers of paint were intact on all accessories except the 'rose' which is hidden away above cupboards. The faulty switch showed no flash marks but it was well and truly jammed.

The only real testing I had time to do was completely disconnect the 3C&E from the switch to check the new switch isn't faulty.

The sad part of the story is; her Elderly father came home in the dark last Thursday, the 10A MCB tripped when he switched the light on and he fell as he made his way through the house to reset it and has been in Hospital since.

 

[AndyPRK]

you would think there was a 3rd switch comewhere hidden. (or worse disconnected!)
as well as a junction.
Maybe the 3C+E was to move a switch from somewhere else

 

[securespark]

Oh no. That's dreadful news.

 

[SUNRAY]

you would think there was a 3rd switch comewhere hidden. (or worse disconnected!)
as well as a junction.
Maybe the 3C+E was to move a switch from somewhere else

That's exactly what I keep thinking. There are 3 doors so it makes total sense but the customers says only 2 switches.

 

[SUNRAY]

Oh no. That's dreadful news.

She told me that as she was about to go visit him and reason for cutting my time off. For some reason I felt terrible about it.

 

[securespark]

That's simply because you're a compassionate guy!

I too thought there must have been three switch positions, with maybe some alterations when the room was made bigger.

 

[securespark]

That's exactly what I keep thinking. There are 3 doors so it makes total sense but the customers says only 2 switches.

I remember going to a house with a complete loss of power on the whole lighting circuit. Dropped every fitting and took off every switch. Could find nothing. Dead as a dodo on both poles!

Started physically tracing the cable from the CU. I discovered it dropped down a wall in the dining room. On the wall was hanging a tapestry.

Lo, behind the tapestry I found a DP switch that was off!!!

Don't know who thought it would be a good idea but the customer had completely forgotten about it & the switch had been knocked (during the day) when he was moving some furniture around with a relative.

 

[sparkwright]

Also makes me think there was a third switch.

One reason for the intermediate only have two T+Es as opposed to the more usual two 3+Es MAY be because there wasn't enough space in the conduit.

***

Any evidence that the intermediate has been interfered with recently?

As it was originally two rooms, is it definite there is supposed to be two way switching?

I noticed the green sleeving. Does any of it have green and yellow sleeving, which may indicate a later alteration?

 

[SUNRAY]

That's simply because you're a compassionate guy!

I too thought there must have been three switch positions, with maybe some alterations when the room was made bigger.

Totally my expectation too. The 2G switch with the 3C&E by the back door is in a short side of wahat was a room about 8ft x 15ft , at the other end in the middle of the wall is a door into a passage with no sign of a switch on that wall, beside that door in the passage is a 2G switch for the passage and stairs on a different MCB. The other half of the room 2-3 ft wider has the door into the passage in the opposite corner to the back door with the inermediate switch:
The blue line is the beam.

I think this may have been 2 properties knocked into one as the beam goes right through to the brick wall between the stairs and passage shown blue but that doesn't seem to have any electrical relevance. I also suspect the area shown in pink may have been part of the bigger half of the room as the plaster finish each side of the green wall is different to the rest plus the vertical plaster join under the beam is very apparent. There is a 6" wide repair to the ceiling across the passage at the right of the pink where I predict was the original door position and additionally the location of the ceiling rose at the red cross is above kitchen wall units, ie close to the wall.

Also makes me think there was a third switch.

One reason for the intermediate only have two T+Es as opposed to the more usual two 3+Es MAY be because there wasn't enough space in the conduit.

That depends on the wiring method used, for a long time the only method I knew was what is not known as '2 strapper' or 'conventional', then it was just '2 way'.
I got the feeling it's buried direct but I didn't think to look.
Additionally I suspect the wall and switch appeared at the same time

***

Any evidence that the intermediate has been interfered with recently?

As it was originally two rooms, is it definite there is supposed to be two way switching?

I noticed the green sleeving. Does any of it have green and yellow sleeving, which may indicate a ;ater alteration?

NO, very definitely nothing has been touched for several coats of paint.

Customer says all 3 come on and off together from both switches and did until the flash, 2 still do work that way.

I didn't notice the earth sleeving in the switches other than it was there and I didn't take pics as there was nothing unexpected.

 

[sparkwright]

Could there be a third switch, maybe buried under a floor somewhere?

Could the switch have got welded, and the live for the third light has been borrowed from here?

 

[SUNRAY]

Could there be a third switch, maybe buried under a floor somewhere?

Could the switch have got welded, and the live for the third light has been borrowed from here?

I think you have to be correct, this screams of a 3rd switch, especially as there are 3 doors. The 2 current switches (intermediate and the new 2G) function correctly. That's a good possibility if there is a 3rd.