In or out

[PBC_1966]

Europe was littered with military alliances and commitments before all the earlier wars. They didn't work.

What makes you think that the EU will work? It hasn't been in existence long enough (as the European Union) to say that with any certainty. The original European Economic Community, European Coal & Steel Community, and Euratom might have been formed with the ideals of tying countries together so closely economically as to make future war impossible, but those have gradually morphed into the more wide-ranging European Community, and now the European Union, as per that original treaty clause about "ever closer union."

And from Britain's perspective, don't forget that the people were lied to when they were told that this "great project" was only about free trade. In later years Edward Heath freely admitted that at the time he signed the U.K. up in 1972 he was fully aware of the eventual aim and knew full well that that aim was not merely free trade at all. In other words, he admitted that he had lied back in 1972.

 

[PBC_1966]

The allies of the First World war actually promoted the second world war by the use of crippling reparations, making life for ordinary Germans intolerable and thus making the conditions for the rise of the Nazi Party favourable...

For anyone who has not seen it before, the excellent Thames Television series "The World at War" made around 1973 documents this well in the first few episodes.

The Occupation of the Rhineland after WWI was one of several measures which supporters hoped would disable Germany so it would be unable to make war again. It was 100% unsuccessful. Hence it failed to prevent WW2, which was my point.

Also as documented well in the above series, it seems that the reason it was unsuccessful was that we saw Germany building up again and, for some reason, did almost nothing to stop it. Perhaps it was some sort of feeling that the reparations demanded following The Great War were indeed very harsh and that we should "go easy" on Germany and give the benefit of the doubt, allowing some sort of pride to be regained. If that was what happened, then clearly our decision was not wise.

 

[Fire and Ice]

I remember the World at War when it was first transmitted.. It still sets shown on Freeview, they will pick a day and run them all back to back... A most excellent documentary..

 

[Fire and Ice]

I remember the World at War when it was first transmitted.. It still sets shown on Freeview, they will pick a day and run them all back to back... A most excellent documentary..

The old man used to comment on how lightweight it was, not showing the real horrors of the War but he was there... It used to scare the willies out of me. Perhaps this is why I am so anti EU as it seems that the EU is not only promoting the rise of the far right but nurturing Soviet values which is pretty weird..

 

[PBC_1966]

Is it right that the European arrest warrant allows a British citizen to be transported to another EU country to be detained based on just a name. No other evidence is required. Not all EU countries have the presumption of innocence that UK citizens enjoy in the UK

And this without the person concerned ever having set foot in the country, for something which may not even be illegal in the U.K., and without any involvement by a British judge to see if there is a primae facie case.

Here in the U.S. there is a more involved legal procedure just to extradite a person wanted for a crime in one state from another, and that's all within the same nation.

That actually raises a comparison in general, since some EU supporters seem to like to think of the EU as some sort of "United States of Europe" and compare it with the U.S.A. In reality, the EU wants to create a federal superstate in which there are fewer differences between one country and another than exist between individual states here in the United States.

 

[PBC_1966]

Not wanting to be part of the European Union says nothing about one's attitude to foreign peoples. And it says nothing abot ones desire for international cooperation. How dare you call someone a racist, and how dare you call someone sour, embittered and opposed to international cooperation simply for wanting to leave the EU.

Unfortunately, many EU supporters seem to resort to that tactic. You're against the creation of a gigantic federal European superstate - Oh, that must mean that you hate foreigners! I don't know if they genuinely believe it, or if they just think that shouting "Racist!" or "Xenophobe!" is supposed to make us crawl away apologizing profusely for daring to question the wisdom of the EU.

Have you checked if the ideas you mention are vague gossip, or if they were accepted by the elected members and the representatives of the countries' governments?

Last I heard, nothing had come of it, but that was a few years ago. But does it matter if it was just talk at the time? It shows the mentality of the EU bureaucrats that they could even consider such a thing.

There are also numerous cases of proposed EU Directives which never came to fruition. The EU's own website has even sought to "debunk" some of them, saying that such directives never existed. Of course, that might be true, but even their own writings sometimes confirm that such a directive was seriously under consideration.

Who said Soviet Union?... Did I say Soviet Union? Did you say Soviet Union? No Sir.... Never the Soviet Union....Never!... Well just a little bit.

The parallels are there already. There was a Russian who published a short talk on this some years ago. I forget his name (probably still available on YouTube), but he saw the parallels all too clearly - And as I remember him saying, "I've seen the EU's future - I lived through it."

I remember the World at War when it was first transmitted.. It still sets shown on Freeview, they will pick a day and run them all back to back... A most excellent documentary..

I have the DVD box set and we just watched it through a couple of months ago. My wife finds it fascinating, and although we've talked about it quite a bit before, she said she learned things watching the series that she never knew before - Or never realized the full extent of until seeing the newsreel footage.

 

[Fire and Ice]

Mad as the US and British legal system may seem (We have all shouted at the TV screen that someone is "Obviously" guilty) it is still lightyears ahead of the EU legal system where presumption of innocence is not guaranteed. 12 years ago I was the victim of French justice when I was helping a friend to take a load of equipment to Spain in a truck when he was hospitalised... My Tachograph showed clearly that I had been travelling at 60mph in the UK (Which is legal in the UK provided that the vehicle cannot power itself to a velocity of more than 56mph. However when my disc was checked in Bordeax, I was fined on the spot for speeding as the maximum speed for LGVs in France is 90kph, I could have fought it in the French courts and won but the cost of defending myself far outweighed getting my money back.. I was presumed guilty and needed to prove my innocence.

 

[PBC_1966]

That reminds me: I don't know if they are still doing it now, but I would be ready to shout every time I heard the British media talk about introducing an "on the spot" fine for something. In reality they might have been talking about a fixed penalty notice (as for many more minor motoring offenses) where you have the option of paying the listed penalty or going to court, but they should realize that under English law there could never legitimately be any such thing as an "on the spot" fine (i.e. you must pay this amount right now, this very moment).

 

[Fire and Ice]

Who said Soviet Union?... Did I say Soviet Union? Did you say Soviet Union? No Sir.... Never the Soviet Union....Never!... Well just a little bit.

The parallels are there already. There was a Russian who published a short talk on this some years ago. I forget his name (probably still available on YouTube), but he saw the parallels all too clearly - And as I remember him saying, "I've seen the EU's future - I lived through it."

Vladimir Bukovsky..

 

[PBC_1966]

That's the fellow - Thanks!

 

[jockscott]

I am aware that much-reduced forces remain in Germany. I am also aware that there are US forces in the UK. I am not aware that either of them are armies of occupation. Particularly since in the 1991 "final" treaty the occupying powers (including the Soviet Union) gave up their remaining rights, and Allied forces remained in Berlin at the request of the German government until the Soviet forces left. What leads you to describe them as armies of occupation?

But John, you are dodging my question asking what are the benefits of the EU

He's conveniently not answered this question F&I . Probably doesn't have an answer, so he has to obfuscate and go off at tangents, till you give up asking.

 

[JohnD]

What makes you think it is my job to answer?

Fire wasted our time by posting his story about armies of occupation. Do you see him substantiating it?

Now he posts the fantasy of Soviet values. Show me the collectivisation of farms, or the archipelago of gulags. Show me the decimation of a nation by deliberate starvation. Show me the transportation of races from their ancestral homelands. Show me the mass graves where a generation of educated men was murdered.

 

[jockscott]

Well John, Fire and Ice has asked you directly, to say the benefits the EU brings to this sceptred isle.. Would be rude not to at least attempt some sort of answer for the fellow. Now be a good sort and answer him. (or can you not find an answer?? )

 

[ajstoneservices]

What makes you think it is my job to answer?

And yet you frequently DEMAND that others answer you and provide evidence to back up what they've said. Something you never do.

And why do you keep editing your posts without leaving a reference to it.

 

[Fire and Ice]

What makes you think it is my job to answer?

Fire wasted our time by posting his story about armies of occupation. Do you see him substantiating it?

Now he posts the fantasy of Soviet values. Show me the collectivisation of farms, or the archipelago of gulags. Show me the extermination of a nation by deliberate starvation.

Correction, Fire wasted your time... No one else was interested. Greece is being deliberately being starved, payments to the troika are paramount. The gulags are being produced by surrounding folk with foreigners with an alien culture, no fences needed and as for the farms, have you never heard of the Common Agricultural Policy?..