Installing floodlight

[Sanjeve]

Hi Guys,

I am bit of a novice here so bear with me.

I have a floodlight outside our front door, however I want to put annother floodlight around the back in the garden.

Is it a simple case of cutting the cable going to my front door floodlight putting in a connector and house it in a waterproof case and run a new cable off it going around the back to the new floodlight.

Both have PIR'S and are connected to a double switch inside the house in the hallway which just stays on.

Cheers

Sanj

 

[JonoPashley]

Any connections made outside which are not within the provided enclosure on the floodlight would require notification under Part P.

 

[ColJack]

cobblers.. it's notifiable not matter where the connections are.. since he's doing electrics outside...

 

[JonoPashley]

Not as far as the additions to Approved document P state.

 

[ColJack]

ALL work on outside electrics are notifiable.

2. Work which -
(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit; or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit;

4. For the purposes of this Schedule -
"kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities;

"special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment
(Safety) Regulations 1994[14];

a direct quote from the actual law, not the guidance..

as you can see, it's a "special installation" as defined

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Not as far as the additions to Approved document P state.

Oh dear.

Firstly, Approved Document P is not the law, it is only guidance. This is the law.

Secondly, the law does not specify that lights on the outside wall of a house are non-notifiable in any circumstances - they are clearly an outdoor lighting installation and therefore fail the test in Schedule 2B paragraph 2(b) for being non-notifiable.

Thirdly, even if you decide to take advantage of the incorrect advice in the guidance (on the reasonable basis that they won't do you for following official advice), when it says in Table 2 Additional Notes i that outside lighting is not notifiable provided that there are no exposed outdoor connections it does not mean "exposed" as in open to the elements, uncovered, open to touch - it means are they made outside, i.e. does any cable run outside and then go into the light.

 

[JonoPashley]

You make me yawn we've been into this before, both scheme providers and BCO agree that its not notifiable. yet you still HAVE to be right, can you honestly say your opinion is worth more than what they have to say?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't care how many times we have been into it, every time you post the same cobblers we'll go into it again.

The scheme providers do not write the law.

Approved Document P is not the law.

BCOs as we know full well from their regularly demonstrated incompetence don't know what the law says.

The law is perfectly clear to anyone with half a brain who is prepared to read it.

 

[JonoPashley]

So your also going to say that the IEE is incorrect as well? So not only did the people who wrote the guidance which was obviously approved for use and hasnt yet been amended, get it wrong so did the people who write the wiring regulations and who were quite probably the people who were consulted when part p was brought about.

 

[bernardgreen]

The law is perfectly clear to anyone with half a brain who is prepared to read it.

The document you quote as being law states.

“extra-low voltage” means voltage not exceeding—
(a) in relation to alternating current, 50 volts between conductors and earth; or
(b) in relation to direct current, 120 volts between conductors;

(a) Is that measuring the voltage as RMS or as PEAK ?

(b) There is no limit to the voltage between the conductors and earth

If the limit is 50 volts RMS then the peak voltages are +70 volts and -70 volts

( √2 x 50 = 70.710678118654752440084436210485 )

If the limit is 50 volts PEAK then the maximum permissable is 35.35 Volts

( 50 / √2 = 35.355339059327376220042218105242 )

While the DC voltage between conductors is less than 120 volts there is nothing to say they cannot be 1000 and 1119 volts above ground.

My point is that the document you quoted as law has a number of points that are left open to interpretation.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The IEE were one of literally hundreds of organisations consulted.

As for them being right or wrong, I would observe the following:

1) They can't even write Guidance Notes which don't conflict with what their own regulations say.

2) They keep amending their own regulations because they couldn't write them properly in the first place.

3) And then there's that lunacy in the latest Wiring Matters about having to ensure and certify complete compliance with the 17th for any existing circuit to which you make any changes whatsoever, which casts strong doubt on their ability to even interpret their own regulations.

Secondly, I'd like to observe that the law is quite clear, and the only people who can change the law are Parliament or the Secretary of State, and the only people who can make a binding interpretation of the law are the courts.

Lastly I'll observe again that it your definition of "exposed outdoor connections" means connections not inside an enclosure then according to you no outside lighting would be notifiable, no matter where it was, as long as all the connections were made inside an enclosure. Which would be ridiculous.

 

[JonoPashley]

Your entitled to your opinion, as i am mine. If the circuit is not sourced from a special location, doesnt cross the garden and all terminations are directly into the provided enclosure on the light fitting then the work falls outside of notifiable scope. I have no problems sleeping after signing the certs, and know many other sparks who share this view of security lighting. If the IEE, the people who wrote the approved documents(which someone somewhere with the authority gave the go ahead to), the NICEIC,the LABC office as well as many electrical books out there all agree this doesnt need notification then is your view really valid?

I quite clearly stated the enclosure you chose not to read it.

BS7671 is not the Law
Approved Document P is not the Law

However these documents can be used in court to prove compliance with the law.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Your entitled to your opinion, as i am mine.

Yup - and I'm entitled to point out that my opinion is based on the wording of the law, and yours is not, and my opinion does not introduce inconsistencies and illogicalities, and yours does.

If the circuit is not sourced from a special location,

And I'm entitled to ask you, for the benefit of others reading this, to show us where that concept affects what Schedule 2B says about outdoor lighting installations.

doesnt cross the garden

And I'm entitled to ask you, for the benefit of others reading this, to show us where that concept affects what Schedule 2B says about outdoor lighting installations.

and all terminations are directly into the provided enclosure on the light fitting

And I'm entitled to ask you, for the benefit of others reading this, to show us where that concept affects what Schedule 2B says about outdoor lighting installations.

then the work falls outside of notifiable scope.

And I'm entitled to ask you, for the benefit of others reading this, to show us how that can possibly be a sensible reading of what the law actually says.

I have no problems sleeping after signing the certs, and know many other sparks who share this view of security lighting.

Given your lack of ability to read what is in front of you I'm not at all surprised.

If the IEE, the people who wrote the approved documents(which someone somewhere with the authority gave the go ahead to), the NICEIC,the LABC office as well as many electrical books out there all agree this doesnt need notification then is your view really valid?

Absolutely it is, for there's no guarantee that the people who wrote those incorrect things have got any more ability or interest in getting it right than you do.


Imagine there was absolutely no guidance at all, no Approved Document P, no opinions published by the IET or trade bodies, and you read this:

2. Work which -
(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,

(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and

(c) consists of -
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit; or

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit;

4. For the purposes of this Schedule -
"kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities;

"special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, an outdoor lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment
(Safety) Regulations 1994[14];

would you really claim that it meant what you currently say it does about cables terminated inside lights and not crossing the garden affecting whether lighting which is outside counts as outside lighting?

If not, why do you decide to agree with all the people who've written something which clearly is not what the law says?

Are you really so unsure of your own intellectual capabilities that you're unwilling to read the actual law and think for yourself?

I quite clearly stated the enclosure you chose not to read it.

What enclosure?

 

[electronicsuk]

Ill let a court decide that not some jumped up know it all on a poxy diy forum thanks. Heres a Hint the Law isnt the be all and end all, if it was they wouldnt need to produce documents explaining it. ***The rest of this quote has been removed. Moderator 8***

Ah, the final resort of a man who knows that he's been proven wrong. Do you not think a court of LAW might make it's desicion based on written LAW rather than the approved guidance document? What next, sentence a murderer based on the opinion of a daily mail columnist?

EDIT: Now my post makes absolutely no sense at all. Cheers mods.

 

[JonoPashley]

Ill let a court decide that not some jumped up know it all on a poxy diy forum thanks. Heres a Hint the Law isnt the be all and end all, if it was they wouldnt need to produce documents explaining it. ***The rest of this quote has been removed. Moderator 8***

Ah, the final resort of a man who knows that he's been proven wrong. Do you not think a court of LAW might make it's desicion based on written LAW rather than the approved guidance document? What next, sentence a murderer based on the opinion of a daily mail columnist?

EDIT: Now my post makes absolutely no sense at all. Cheers mods.

Courts often make decisions that bear no relevance to law. Violent criminals who arent from this country should be immediately deported, but more often than not get to stay here to reoffend so we dont hurt their "Human Rights".

The Documents are approved by the secretary of state, the same person who deals with the main law, a large unwieldy law which requires further guidance on the functional components of it(Approved Documents). To put into the law a absolute decision for everything would be neigh on impossible. Hence the Sec of State Approves guidance to be used by the public at large. The documents change far more often than the law itself.

I hope that you can see my standpoint that the law isnt always as clear as it seems and that this is something i have checked out before deciding on my course of action. If you wish to interpret it differently maybe the OP should contact his local LABC and ask them for there take before preceding.