Jack Straws comment

Re-printed from The Guardian: 7th January

Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested.

The Times investigation is based around 56 men convicted in the Midlands and north of England since 1997, 50 from Muslim backgrounds. Granted, such prosecutions are notoriously difficult to sustain, but, nonetheless, this is a small sample used to evidence the "tidal wave" of offending referred to by unnamed police sources. Martin Narey, the chief executive of Barnardo's, which has run projects in the areas concerned for many years, tells me that, while he is pleased to see open discussion of child sexual exploitation, he worries that "decent Pakistani men will now be looked at as potential child abusers". He insists: "This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."

While Narey acknowledges that "in the Midlands and north of England there does seem to be an over-representation of minority ethnic men in [offending] groups", he argues strongly that no useful conclusions can be drawn until the government undertakes a serious piece of research into what is a nationwide problem. (Keith Vaz, who chairs the Commons home affairs select committee called for such an inquiry today.) Narey also refutes the allegation that Muslim men are grooming white girls because of cultural assumptions about their sexual availability, as girls from minority backgrounds have been similarly abused.

Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white.

There is an ignoble tradition of racialising criminality in this country, in particular sexual offences, from the moral panic about West Indian pimps in the 1960s to the statistically dubious coverage of African-Caribbean gang rape in the 90s. But even those who do want further investigation into the apparent preponderance of Asian perpetrators tell me that this is not about cultural expectations regarding the sexual susceptibility of white females but rather about opportunity and vulnerability, especially of young people within the care system. It is certainly admissible to query just how beholden to "the tyranny of custom", as Wednesday's Times leader put it, are these twentysomething males who drive flash cars and ply their victims with alcohol.

Nevertheless, Muslim voices are now being lined up to attest that serial child molestation is not actually sanctioned by the Qur'an. By building an apparent consensus of voices "bravely" speaking out in the face of accusations of racism, it becomes that much harder for a figure from within the Muslim community to offer a more nuanced perspective or indeed state that these allegations are simply not true. The inevitable and distorting consequence of framing the debate around a "conspiracy of silence" is that it effectively shuts down or taints as mealy-mouthed any criticism.

The efforts of the Times to stand up this investigation are certainly considerable: selectively quoting or misquoting some groups, and inventing a category of "on-street grooming" that does not exist in law and was not recognised by any of the agencies I spoke to. It is also worth asking how responsible it is to provide ammunition to the violent racist extremists already active in these areas on such flawed evidence.

Meanwhile, the sunlight of investigative inquiry has yet to shine on our legal system which, all agencies agree, fails to cater to the needs of children who – groomed into acquiescence by practised abusers of all creeds and colours – don't present as the perfect victims our limited version of justice demands.


Perhaps we should all stop talking anecdotally and refer to real data.
 
Sponsored Links
Perhaps we should all stop talking anecdotally and refer to real data.

And where do you expect to find this data given that the powers that be profess to not having any.

Exactly. Which is why we should all not base our perceptions on others anecdotal evidence (although, the very phrase "anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron).

Which is also why Jack Straw's comments were so ill-thought-out, because he based his comments on anecdotal or limited evidence and tried to pass it off as all-encompassing fact.

Apart from what is being said, there is also the matter of how and where things are said. Straw did not on this occasion go to his local mosque or Muslim associations in Blackburn with some evidence of local cases that needed to be discussed - or at least there is no evidence that he did. Instead, he made a public pronouncement on BBC's Newsnight on 8 January about a national ethnic trend for which he gave absolutely no evidence.
The Guardian

I think that you're all being sucked into Jack Straw's view of reality.
 
Perhaps Jack Straw having been first Home Secretary and then the Minister for Justice knows a little more than us ;)

And do you honestly believe that there is no data showing ethnicity of sexual offenders?

When I had my van nicked recently i was asked my ethnicity, I can't believe they're not asking the criminals and logging the results.
 
Sponsored Links
Perhaps Jack Straw having been first Home Secretary and then the Minister for Justice knows a little more than us ;)

And we all remember how succesful he was: From The Telegraph:

Full coverage of UK Politics
Jack Straw likens his job as Justice Secretary to Groundhog Day. He was responsible for prisons as Home Secretary between 1997 and 2001 and is once more in his current post.


Whoever is in charge, prisons face the same problems

The same problems of overcrowding, reoffending and disputes with staff that he had to deal with then have not gone away. Indeed, many of the policies he announced then to deal with them are being revisited. More than that, initiatives that were announced a few years back are being reheated and presented as though they were new. Mr Straw is today proposing that prisoners should sign contracts that will encourage them to undertake behaviour programmes and learn new skills. In return, they will be expected to meet certain standards of behaviour inside and outside prison.

But a precisely this idea was put forward by Charles Clarke when he was Home Secretary in 2005.

Mr Straw says he wants to review the idea and consult about it. When ministers make these statements do they really intend to do something or is it all just window dressing, like the new Titan prisons that Mr Straw says may not be built now but Mr Brown insists will? Since Mr Clarke proposed the idea of prisoner contracts nearly three years ago has anything actually happened to bring them about. Presumably not otherwise why does Mr Straw not just get on with it? It has been a hallmark of this government that policies are announced over and over again, so often, indeed, that it is sometimes impossible to remember whether they have actually happened or not.

It is not just Mr Straw who feels he is Groundhog Day.
And if there was aproblem while he was Home/Justice Secretary what did he do? He hmmm'ed and Ahh'ed about building prisons. Now we know how the previous government failed miserably to be able to predict prison population, despite having all the data that could have been needed.

And do you honestly believe that there is no data showing ethnicity of sexual offenders?
When there is some people choose to ignore it:
. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white.
 
people are getting carried away with the fact that it's young WHITE women and that
Somehow the crimes are racially motivated when in fact the more likely reason is that to many non white cultures white women especially english are seen to be EASY

Therefore an obvious target for such behavior would be vulnerable white girls


Lets face it there are a lot of white slags out there and it is not that hard to !#&$ em
Not all white women are but there are more than enough to create the perception
In the minds of anyone of any culture

Look at any brits abroad programme or any documentary you will see loads of em falling over drunk literally throwing themselves at blokes.

The reputation this has been created worldwide and makes english girls seen as an easy target


The fact is white men do exactly the same perhaps not in such a targeted way but spiking drinks, get her tipsy , slip her a micky etc is all seen as ACCEPTABLE behavior
and in reality not that far removed from what is being described
 
And do you honestly believe that there is no data showing ethnicity of sexual offenders?
When there is some people choose to ignore it:
. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white.

When you said
Perhaps we should all stop talking anecdotally and refer to real data.

I thought you meant REAL DATA and not that presented by a journalist to to sell his story. Might it be a little tainted having been drawn from such a small geographical area.
 
people are getting carried away with the fact that it's young WHITE women and that
Somehow the crimes are racially motivated when in fact the more likely reason is that to many non white cultures white women especially english are seen to be EASY

Therefore an obvious target for such behavior would be vulnerable white girls


Lets face it there are a lot of white slags out there and it is not that hard to !#&$ em
Not all white women are but there are more than enough to create the perception
In the minds of anyone of any culture

Look at any brits abroad programme or any documentary you will see loads of em falling over drunk literally throwing themselves at blokes.

The reputation this has been created worldwide and makes english girls seen as an easy target


The fact is white men do exactly the same perhaps not in such a targeted way but spiking drinks, get her tipsy , slip her a micky etc is all seen as ACCEPTABLE behavior
and in reality not that far removed from what is being described

It clearly makes it acceptable in your warped and twisted mind.
 
I thought you meant REAL DATA and not that presented by a journalist to to sell his story. Might it be a little tainted having been drawn from such a small geographical area.

But when Jack Straw uses data from a limited geographical area and purports it be a national ethnic problem, so many of you are willing and eager to jump on the bandwagon.
 
Therefore an obvious target for such behavior would be vulnerable white girls



Look at any brits abroad programme or any documentary you will see loads of em falling over drunk literally throwing themselves at blokes.

The reputation this has been created worldwide and makes english girls seen as an easy target

Sorry, Spacecat, you're out of order on at least two counts.
We're talking about crimes being committed against under-age girls. Criminal in most societies, I think.

The 'laddettes' are girls of the age of consent.

There is no question of anyone being excused or understood for mistaking the under-age, vulnerable girls with 'laddettes'.
 
I thought you meant REAL DATA and not that presented by a journalist to to sell his story. Might it be a little tainted having been drawn from such a small geographical area.

But when Jack Straw uses data from a limited geographical area and purports it be a national ethnic problem, so many of you are willing and eager to jump on the bandwagon.

I See, so it's right for the Times reporter to present his findings in such a way as to "prove" that this type of abuse is limited to the Blackburn area while wrong that JS suggests we could extrapolate the figure to show a wider problem.

I'm with you now, DATA what does it prove? anything you want it too;)
 
d[/quote]

It clearly makes it acceptable in your warped and twisted mind.[/quote]



Where did I say it was acceptable?

You really are a thicko

It was merely an explanation as to why a certain type of girl may have been chosen
Other than the warped racist bile that pollutes your mind
 
The '50 out of 56' cases was based on data from 1997 to date for the Midlands and North of England.

Why was that set of data used? Because it represented what the reporter wanted to illustrate.


The data from Engage was based on data from Blackburn, JS's constituency. And it wasn't presented as universal data. It was clearly stated where the data referred to, unlike JS's comments.

The original report on two men being jailed was from Nottingham. Why did JS get involved/ Because it suited him now. It didn't suit him to be invloved in talking about any perceived problem while he was Justice/Home Secretary.
 
[/quote]

Sorry, Spacecat, you're out of order on at least two counts.
We're talking about crimes being committed against under-age girls. Criminal in most societies, I think.

The 'laddettes' are girls of the age of consent.

There is no question of anyone being excused or understood for mistaking the under-age, vulnerable girls with 'laddettes'.[/quote]

I am aware of that and can see the difference what I am saying is that WHITE underage girls may have been seen as a specific target because the GENERAL perception of white women is that they are easy
 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top