johnson and starley warm air

[royhall]

For your information. We recently had a Eco 32 warm air system installed to replace an old Halstead warm air system, all ok but one important item of note, in Feb 2011 we had some cold nights and our lounge was recorded at 24 degrees which is fine, the 2 ducts that go upstairs serve the landing to enable the air to filter over the 4 bedrooms - we were told the temperature will not be as good as the lounge where the heater is based - but the temperature in all 4 bedrooms was 14 degrees, the thermometers was hanging from the lamp shade which are in the middle of the rooms, so i asked Johnson and Starley and eventually got an answer, the upstairs temperature should be taken at the ducts which is slighty warmer than 14 degrees, so thats great, if we were told it would be this much of a difference we would not buy the system.

My conclusion is on cold nights sleep on the landing.

The system is fine if you have a bungalow, you start pushing air upstairs through ducts - and how long they are - the air push starts to deminish which is why our upstairs temperature was 14 degrees against 24 in the lounge.

Not happy with the product, it does not do what we were told, in fact the old Halstead was much better with the warmth, if you have the money buy a second heater for the upstairs but then cost ?, go for radiators.

Johnson and Starley have not done any customer care progress to see what else they could do, they have our money - via a contractor - and that's the end of it

 

[Gasguru]

It's nothing to do with Johnson & Starley.

Either the unit has not been sized/commissioned correctly or

The airflow through the vents/registers has not been balanced or

The system was never designed properly in the first place.

The majority of systems I see date back to the late 60s/early 70s. Much of the ductwork is poorly installed and poorly insulated. Just replacing the warm air unit is unlikley to rectify fundamental design defects.

24 centigrade in the living room is warmer than necessary indicating the system could possibly be adjusted to provide more heat upstairs.

 

[expertgasman]

Guru is quite right. OP, have you spoken to installer?

 

[simond]

The Economaire product uses a varispeed fan, the Halstead does not.

In principle, this gives better temperature regulation. In practice, those rooms furthest away and on the most arduous lengths of ductwork end up being deprived of airflow when the heater modulates down. This makes them cooler.

This is one of the reasons we now only offer the Lennox condensing warm air units, they have a large, two speed fan and 94% fuel efficiency.

 

[royhall]

Some interesting answers, installer has balanced the unit but still no better but to be fair we are having warm evenings so will wait until some cold evenings.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Darrenjames26uk]

I have a johnson and starley high spec J50.

My problem is that in certain rooms (living room, landing) the heat is great but others (bedrooms, kitchen) the hot air out put is very poor. What can I do to get this more evenly distributed?

cheers

 

[45yearsagasman]

Tagging onto the end of an old thread is confusing. I've just read all the other postings before I got to your query.
Get the system serviced and balanced by a warm air specialist.
Are your ret air filters clear. Fan clean etc. Def not diyable.

 

[simond]

Well, I would say it may well be DIYable.


You haven't said whether the system has always failed to achieve expectations, or this is a more recent phenomenon.

The most common situation for poor flow is that the Warm Air Unit is located next to the hottest rooms. They are hottest because someone has fully opened the registers (grilles) in these areas and therefore most heat is coming out, depriving outlets further down the duct.

This heat normally turns off the roomstat which is usually located in the room next to the warm air unit (which, as we have discussed above is really hot). The warm air unit then turns off with only 33% of the house warmed up.

Simple solution is to close the registers in these overheated rooms to nearly shut. The airflow from a standard (not System ET or modairflow equipped) J&S unit is fixed so it then has to distribute elsewhere by the ducts.

As said above, worth checking the return air filter for fluff. This is also DIY, or customer work. If you had a Brink downflow, you'd need to take part of the flue out, but a J&S HiSpec, what could be easier?

Personally, I think these heaters are nothing more than meccano, in constrast a new Lennox condensing unit is 94.5% efficient, it plumes like a b@stard. Warm air porn.

 

[Agile]

The Economaire product uses a varispeed fan, the Halstead does not.

In principle, this gives better temperature regulation. In practice, those rooms furthest away and on the most arduous lengths of ductwork end up being deprived of airflow when the heater modulates down. This makes them cooler.

Why is the air flow not linearly proportional?

I would expect that if the system was correctly balanced then it would all reduce at the same rate.

Although I am gas rated for warm air, I get called to only a very few and then usually for the same faults, failed fans and blocked filters!

I am not a fan of warm air heating but it is very popular in the US and Canada but I have never understood why it seems to be so badly designed and balanced here that poor heating in bedrooms is a common complaint. Its not a feature of the technology!

Tony

 

[simond]

Why is the air flow not linearly proportional

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Economaire, plus Modairflow and System ET versions of J&S WAUs, pulse the gas train and slow the circulation fan as target temperatures are closing. The room stat is a thermistor type.

The circulation fan speed affects how much air is pushed through the ductwork. How much air cu ft/m is the non linearity compared to fixed rate systems.

THe Lennox people understand this and use a two speed only system.

 

[mysteryman]

The problem is clearly one of distribution, not installed capacity. As usual, the manufacturer gets blamed!

 

[Agile]

Manufacturers have a lot to answer for when they encourage and list substandard installers on their web sites just because they have slept through a training session!

 

[royhall]

WELL WE HAVE HAD A YEAR OF THE NEW ECO 32 SYSTEM, BOTTOM LINE IS GREAT WARMTH IN THE DOWNSTAIRS LOUNGE DINING ROOM KITCHEN, UPSTAIRS 4 BEDROOMS 10 DEGREES LESS, BALANCED CORRECTLY, AIR FLOW SEEMS TO DIMINISH AS IT FLOWS ALONG DUCTS, WE HAVE ADDITIONAL PLUG IN RADIATORS TO TOP UP AS AND WHEN.

WOULD I RECOMMEND IT ? YES IN A BUNGALOW, NOT IN A HOUSE. [/quote]

 

[mysteryman]

As I wrote an hour ago, it is a distribution problem.

As Tony Agile wrote, there are substandard installers out there.

 

[45yearsagasman]

Well, I would say it may well be DIYable.

All the so called warm air experts haven't managed to fix the problem, so it may well be beyond the scope of a diyer.
Worked on hundreds of warm air systems and balancing is not for diyers.