Johnward & VicVapour

[Jezclayton]

Chipping in as a heating installer (with experience of Intergas boilers) as opposed to an electrician, I understand the point the OP is trying to make but .....

1) I would hardly describe the Intergas as a bog standard boiler. In particular you have not explained how the Intergas boiler handles DHW and CH temperatures which is key to the solution.

2) The NTC data you provide is surely applicable only to the OTS which you have already stated you are not using. Is it relevant, 10k 12k or otherwise, so why confuse the issue?

Installing wiring in accordance with regulations and implementing a control system is one thing and clearly a qualified electrician is best placed to do that. Designing the system on the other hand is the responsibility of the heating installer who needs to demonstrate a good understanding of the materials specified. particularly the boiler in this case.

For the electrician to do his job properly he needs clear communication from the designer as to what is required as opposed to an open ended riddle such as that posed.

 

[ecowarrior]

Might have to disagree a little with your comments. The Igas boiler is as simple as they come. I have not added to the equation the clever things it can do (by controlling the motorised valve from within the boiler) mearly set it up with the normal everyday options 99% of all modern condensing OV boilers will have. The only think perhaps to note is its ability to use a WC Compensator. This principle can be used on just about any normal boiler that uses an external ntc for WC. I have tried my best to simplify this. Lets call it A ferroli ****ebox then!
All the custard requires is separate hi flow temp to DHW & separate low flow rate to CH using a standard simple no frills attached boiler. The only thing the boiler needs to achieve this is the facility for WC. To be fair that covers the very vast majority of boilers.

I am not going to add a WC (OTS) but need the facility

 

[Jezclayton]

Why not just leave the bodging for people who don't know any better (suspect they might choose a cheaper boiler than the Intergas) and install it properly. In other words, dump the existing 'S' plan, replace it with a V4013 controlled by the boiler, add the OTC and set your boiler parameters accordingly. Job done well.

Are you ****ed.....?

 

[mehran]

Jez, the wc part is useful in system with two 2-port valves as you you can still time the dhw and though not stated by eco you can keep an intergas a combi. Which gives can give you two different dhw temperature and a low temp ch temp.

 

[ericmark]

I see a number of problems the cost is the main one. We could install motorised valves on each radiator and a sensor on the return pipe so the radiator is electrical controlled. However what we want is a system everyone will under stand. So what is required is something ready built.

The Myson radiator I have does have built in controls which allow it to be switched off and on and the room temperature to be monitored so the fan cuts in and out as required. It's small yet very high output.

However it relies on a open system with the water circulating no matter if it's on or off.

If the radiators were plumbed in series this would work. i.e. like the very old central heating found in schools and the like.

However in a parallel system it allows hot water to return to the boiler so closing down the boiler.

I am sure there is somewhere a valve which will close the supply of water once the temperature is exceeded but with any clever system like this the question must be who will service it?

Yes I am sure I can write a PLC program to control the central heating and fit motorised valves on each radiator but should I not be available to service it how the heck would you find anyone to repair it.

So we want a system that follows one of the propriety control systems. Be this a W, C, S, Y or any other plan it's one that anyone can follow and repair.

There is a problem with TRV's in that they can't be programmed to work at different temperatures at different times of the day. However the Horstmann DRT2 Room Thermostat which only costs £24 like many others can be programmed for different temperatures and times according to day of week and time of day.

So what is wanted is some simple way to combine the systems already made.

Using zones is a step in the right direction but again we hit the cost barrier at £50 a pop motorised valves are not cheap but clearly using a thermostat like the DRT2 to work the motorised valve would allow far more control.

However we then come to house design. My house for example was designed to be heated by one central gas fire the open plan means putting in central heating instead the upper floors are stinking hot.

Leaving a door open or closed to a bedroom will alter the temperature of that room dramatically. Using the TRV's have cured that problem to a large extent but it brings us to the point the heating system needs designing for the house there is no one size fits all.

Temperature of the water is a major problem the hotter it is the smaller the radiator can be and to produce a sealed system does allow the water temperature to rise. I worked on the building of one of these systems in Sizewell in Suffolk were high pressure water was used to transfer the heat.

This brings me to the best system. Turn all the gas into electric then heat the home with electric heaters each with it's own built in control system.

 

[holmslaw]

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[Dan Robinson]

There is a problem with TRV's in that they can't be programmed to work at different temperatures at different times of the day.

Yes they can.

If the price is right they can even activate the boiler individually if needs be.

Temperature of the water is a major problem the hotter it is the smaller the radiator can be and to produce a sealed system does allow the water temperature to rise

Yes, but not going to happen in a domestic environment, and you are going in the opposite direction as far as temperature control. The idea is to keep the circulating water as low as possible.

 

[ecowarrior]

Designing the system on the other hand is the responsibility of the heating installer who needs to demonstrate a good understanding of the materials specified. particularly the boiler in this case..

Probably the most sensible comment on this thread. It wasn't meant to be a riddle.
Doing dot to dot wiring is fine, but for fault finding you need to understand how it works before you can fix it?

 

[ecowarrior]

There have been some interesting comments about Gas Engineers

You're not engineers, you're plumbers that have passed a course in gas and CO safety. Something that any fool could do.

Sadly the insults start. How would you define an engineer? Why am I just a stupid plumber? I assure you 'any fool' certainly can't do what I do.
I chose the Intergas boiler as I had the drawings at hand. The same applies to any boiler (with WC) I am not talking new build - that's all a doddle _ i am talking about trying to squeeze the very most out of (in this case)an old S plan whilst adding a new type boiler? Due diligence I believe.

 

[bernardgreen]

Designing the system on the other hand is the responsibility of the heating installer who needs to demonstrate a good understanding of the materials specified. particularly the boiler in this case..

Probably the most sensible comment on this thread.

equal with Ericmark's

but it brings us to the point the heating system needs designing for the house there is no one size fits all.

Which means in some houses the control system has to be custom designed for the house and off the shelf components may not provide the best solution. In some old properties two hot water tanks may be needed to avoid long runs of pipe work between tank and tap, long runs that waste water and heat.

Doing dot to dot wiring is fine, but for fault finding you need to understand how it works before you can fix it?

A comment which fits a lot of "electricians" as well as plumers who wire things together.

To get clear communication between two people they have to be speaking the same language and as I see it the language of plumbing and the language of electrical work are quite different. ON and OFF in electrical vocubulary can equate to DEMAND and SATISFIED when applied to a thermostat by a plumber. And diodes and stalled motors do not happen in electrical installations, only plumbing.

 

[holmslaw]

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[Jezclayton]

Jez, the wc part is useful in system with two 2-port valves as you you can still time the dhw and though not stated by eco you can keep an intergas a combi. Which gives can give you two different dhw temperature and a low temp ch temp.

Hi Mehran

I understand what you are saying. All the Intergas boilers I have been involved in have been combis linked to DHW cylinders.The combi HW typically provides kitchen/utility and then the DHW cylinder/CH is via a 3 port valve controlled by the boiler. Each CH circuit (assuming more than one) then has its own two port valve downstream. You are however limited to one CH temperature, being dependent on the heat curve.

Taking on board erics comments, viessmann do of course provide for differing CH temperatures for the various zones through the use of their Modular-Divicon manifolds utilised in conjunction with mixer extension kits. It works well but comes at a very high price.

Anyhow, I've been up all night and have had my fill of heating for now. On a lighter note, i had cause to phone Intergas recently and was surprised to hear Vincent had left. What went on there?

Jez

 

[Jezclayton]

There have been some interesting comments about Gas Engineers

You're not engineers, you're plumbers that have passed a course in gas and CO safety. Something that any fool could do.

We'll be expecting to see you on a course soon then...

 

[ecowarrior]

An engineer would have a much better ability to clearly communicate than you demonstrate. You seem to be suffering from dunning-kruger' effect, as do many other gassafe plumbers that I've met.

I think it was ' 2 different flow temps for DHW & CH from the boiler running on an old S plan? Not sure what the communication error was. How would you like an engineer to be qualified before he can be deemed an Engineer?

 

[holmslaw]

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