Johnward & VicVapour

[ericmark]

How would you define an engineer? Some one who has level 5 or above qualifications in an engineering subject. Be that HND, HNC, foundation degree or above.

I am talking about trying to squeeze the very most out of (in this case) an old S plan whilst adding a new type boiler?

OK now we are getting to the bones of the problem. So we have two motorised valves and a tank thermostat (can’t use old switch type has to be special see below) any time settings are done by the boiler. I am looking at http://www.intergasheating.co.uk/lijsten/files/101503 - 88322702 C HRE SB MV1.pdf at to what the boiler can do.

It seems the boiler sends out signals with X2 (3, 5, and 6) to control the motorised valves. http://www.controlead.com/media/downloads/VC4013-6013ps.pdf gives instructions for these. So terminal 5 becomes line when there’s a call for heat.

Connector X4 (9, 10) has to have the special sensor 092.642 fitted which lets the boiler know the domestic water temperature. Domestic water heating takes priory over central heating.

This gives very little as to what the electrician can do as far as wiring other than follow the boiler manufactures instructions. The only thing that has to be done is use a relay or internal switches of the motorised valves to change the designed single valve operation to double valve operation.

http://www.honeywelluk.com/Documents/Reference-Guide/pdf/911.pdf gives us the internal wiring of the valve and white, orange, and grey wires are connected to a micro switch with brown and blue working the motor. So it is simply a case of using the built in switch on the central heating valve to open the domestic hot water valve.

With so little that we can now configure our selves in the main we have to just follow manufactures instructions what is the question?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've yet to enter the brave new world of condensing boilers, and I've only skimmed this (mostly) mutual recrimination thread, but some of it seems to confirm what I've heard before - that it's not easy to drop a CB into an old CH system with traditionally sized rads.

My current boiler is a combi, and the controls for CH water temperature and DHW temperature are knobs on the front.

I have no motorised valves, no zones, just one programmer/room stat and TRVs.

It all seems to work just fine.

 

[Mike_W]

As a 'stupid plumber' I know how to carry out continuity, insulation resistance, polarity checks and earth loop impedance tests and have the kit to do it. I can also design and install far more complicated heating control systems than the one in this thread.

How many of these fully qualified sparks know anything about letby, tightness testing, gas rating, ventilation, G3 regs, Part L regs or flue gas analysis to name but a few of the things us 'stupid plumbers' need to know?

 

[mehran]

getting better ericmark but have you tried to get a vc4013 valve in UK? Dont fancy flying over to Syria.

At any rate if you wire up as you suggest, I you would not be able to time the hot water, It would keep the cylinder hot 24hr a day 7days a week 365 days a year. Though I do some times wire up intergas boiler this way.

You can solve the problem by using off the self stuff you can easy get in this country.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As a 'stupid plumber' I know how to carry out continuity, insulation resistance, polarity checks and earth loop impedance tests and have the kit to do it. I can also design and install far more complicated heating control systems than the one in this thread.

Good for you.

Criticism would only be forthcoming on here if you asked a question which, because of your job, showed that you did not, when you should.

How many of these fully qualified sparks know anything about letby, tightness testing, gas rating, ventilation, G3 regs, Part L regs or flue gas analysis to name but a few of the things us 'stupid plumbers' need to know?

With the exception of part L we don't have to. That isn't our job. What is your point?


I'm still not sure about the point of this thread.
It seems to be that because plumbers/heating engineers know something electricians may not, electricians should not criticise anyone for connecting electrical installations badly.

All heating engineers may be plumbers but are all plumbers heating engineers?
Kitchen fitters are allowed to install electrics but they are not electricians.

I don't know how the interior components of a television set work even though it uses electricity.
That's why there are television repairers.

P.S. I'm not too good at brain surgery either - that involves electricity as well.

 

[ecowarrior]

With so little that we can now configure our selves in the main we have to just follow manufactures instructions what is the question?

Blimey - I am impressed. I wish in hindsight that I hadnt used a Intergas as an example as it happens to have some built in functions that the very most of boilers dont. Having said that you are absolutely correct on your observations of the working of the Intergas.

I was aiming at using all the old stuff. (including the original tank stat) Your observations on the need for NTC controlled DHW are correct ( you can still trick the boiler using the old stat but with it 'back to front')

The WC or OTS is the key to a simple answer. If the board sees a low resistance from the WC it knows the outside temp is high. If its the other way around and it sees the resistance is high then it raises the flow temp. If we see from the curve the lowest resistance that max flow temps are achieved then by placing a resistor of that value ( or higher) it will mediately raise the flow temp to max. When the resistor is removed from the cct it drops back down to the boiler set point that can be what ever the customer sets it to. Now u have instant max flow controlled by the addition of the resistance to the cct. With a bit of jigery pokery with the live supplys too, & the S/L from the two ports you can for the price of a resistor achieve something quite impressive and further reduce gas consumption. There are a couple of other issues wiring it up the Intergas way but of no real issue to this note.

I totally agree with the 'engineer status' but things being how they are I think you can call yourself a brain surgeon if you want. I do have a degree aleit from a lifetime ago in Electrical Engineering so I like playing.

You can understand how infuriating it is to be constantly abused by the likes of the chuckle brothers who try to impose their superiority to all and sundry. You are obviously a 'proper' sparky. The ongoing fight over notification has reared its ugly head again. Both my GSR & NIC bloke say S plan type control wiring is not notifiable as it is not part of the instalation? without opening another can of worms - whats your view?

 

[ecowarrior]

I'm still not sure about the point of this thread.

I think u hit the nail on the head. Sparky will fault find perfect all items ref the installation up to the plug / FSU. After that its like a TV or MRI Scanner (for your brain surgery!) You need an expert of some sort - and as so few sparkies are knowledgeable in this area it results in the plumber simply having to tackle it. And good God don't we get some grief for nicking your work & doing it all wrong!

 

[EFLImpudence]

Both my GSR & NIC bloke say S plan type control wiring is not notifiable as it is not part of the instalation? without opening another can of worms - whats your view?

It's obviously part of the installation.

However, depending on the method (of installation) used it may or may not be notifiable.

Surely, as it's your job, you should know.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think u hit the nail on the head. Sparky will fault find perfect all items ref the installation up to the plug / FSU. After that its like a TV or MRI Scanner (for your brain surgery!) You need an expert of some sort - and as so few sparkies are knowledgeable in this area it results in the plumber simply having to tackle it. And good God don't we get some grief for nicking your work & doing it all wrong!

I do not consider the electrician not wishing to go 'inside the boiler' (at a customer's) as a sign of inadequacy or ignorance.
More that it could lead to insurance/warranty/liability problems (Gas safe).

Therefore, it is a job for the installer or boiler manufacture to repair.

Having said that, I have repaired my own (pcb dry joints).

 

[Jezclayton]

getting better ericmark but have you tried to get a vc4013 valve in UK? Dont fancy flying over to Syria.

At any rate if you wire up as you suggest, I you would not be able to time the hot water, It would keep the cylinder hot 24hr a day 7days a week 365 days a year. Though I do some times wire up intergas boiler this way.

You can solve the problem by using off the self stuff you can easy get in this country.

When we first met at Intergas some 2-3 years ago I seem to recall that the intention was that the DHW was left on 24/7 and the board is designed that way. On a modern system with the high levels of insulation applied to the cylinder there isn't alot wrong with that, even if it is totally contrary to established practice in the UK.

I am a little surprised that Intergas haven't included in the manual some worked examples as to how their boiler might integrate into a traditional UK control setup instead of leaving it to all and sundry to devise their own solution. This then leads to confusion if a third party attends to rectify a fault.

Appreciate that the OP, ecowarrior, wishes he hadn't used this boiler as his example so it's back to the combustion chamber.

Regards

 

[ricicle]

There are a few of us on here who are more than domestic electricians being involved in the design and maintenance of complex industrial control systems who could wire your simple systems as long as we know how the system needs to work and how the components work.
You know how your systems are supposed to work as you work with them every day but can you carry out the actual physical wiring of them safely and within regulations ?

One PLC and a few peripherals would cover even the most complex of heating systems and I can program them in my sleep.
Do you want to carry on ?

 

[ecowarrior]

There are a few of us on here who are more than domestic electricians being involved in the design and maintenance of complex industrial control systems who could wire your simple systems as long as we know how the system needs to work and how the components work.
You know how your systems are supposed to work as you work with them every day but can you carry out the actual physical wiring of them safely and within regulations ?

One PLC and a few peripherals would cover even the most complex of heating systems and I can program them in my sleep.
Do you want to carry on ?

I wouldnt disagree with that for one microsecond. We both fall foul of the two week wonders who were insurance salesman then does two weeks on Part P bluffs his case with Ellecsa & is suddenly a Full Scope Domestic installer advertising as an electrician. At least our two week wonders take a little longer than that - but these chaps seem to assume the right to strut about with the 'I'm the DB coz I'm a sparky' quoting chapter & verse and talking down to Installers who (for what ever reason) have & always will continue to do their own wiring. This thread wasnt aimed at commercial or time served blokes like you as I have no doubt you can wire stuff in your sleep. Sadly As with the term 'Engineer' the word Electrician is becoming almost meaningless. All a sign of the times I suppose.

 

[Mike_W]

...
You know how your systems are supposed to work as you work with them every day but can you carry out the actual physical wiring of them safely and within regulations ?...

Yes.

 

[Johnmward02]

Been away haven't seen a screen, O MY GOD, haven't we been busy. Surprised at Eco getting suckered like that, that's an old CC trick should no better.

Well I think this thread should be dedicated to VIC as it was him who SPARKED it off this time


Not sure how to do this Mybe dan can to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUHaN8rF2U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[gaswizzard]

Drat , got all excited when I heard Sugar Minot playing.