Lead mains water pipe query

[Charlie6]

Hello All,

I had a complete overhaul of my central heating system and my heating engineer fitted an internal stop tap as we did not appear to have one. Whilst he was doing the work he also replaced the mains lead water pipe from my hallway to the new stop tap with a plastic pipe (the lead pipe had already been replaced upstairs). I now plan to have a paved driveway in my front garden and thought it would be a good idea to replace the last bit of lead pipe running under my garden from the external stop tap in the pavement to my hallway. I have contacted my water board and they to arrange a site inspection and to give me a list of contractors that can carry out the work.

Does this mean that the work can only be carried out by certain contractors and there might be an issue with my heating engineer replacing the pipe in our house? Is the water board largely concerned with the new connection to their external tap and ensuring that this is carried out correctly or are they concerned about the entire mains water pipe (including the replacement pipe that has been fitted)?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[Agile]

In theory only a plumber with the Water Regulations can lay mains pipe anywhere. But no body bothers much about that.

Someone with that qualification can lay and cover outside pipework. Its the depth of 750 min they are bothered about.

Only qualified contractors can do pipework under the pavement.

Normally you or your guy would dig and lay pipe on your property and call Water Co to inspect before you cover it up.

He can connect to existing pipe INSIDE your property. But if its lead they might have a special arrangement to do that free or at least to do the street connection free.

Might as well use 32 mm pipe as that's so little more and gives a better flow rate.

Its always best to get connection to street to be replaced as well as inside your property if there is no or only a small charge.

Tony

 

[Charlie6]

Thanks for such a brilliant response, Tony! I will ask for 32mm when I find a contractor to do the work. Do you roughly any idea as to the costs involved to replace the pipe (the trench length will need to be 6m)?

My main concern is that as soon as the water board or contractor realise that part of the pipe has been changed that the proverbial may hit the fan. Can they issue me with any sort of penalty for the pipe that has been already replaced inside the property by a non Water Regulation qualified plumber?

 

[Calmore]

If the water company get stroppy, threaten to sue them for supplying you with water contaminated with lead all these years!

 

[Charlie6]

Had the site inspection and he was a lovely bloke and gave me some pointers when trying to find someone to do the work. I do, however have a couple of questions that I hope someone can help with:

- He advised Armaflex insulation needs to be used in the house (suspended timber floor) and it's about £7 per metre. Is this class O or TuffCoat?
- I gather 4" ducting/soil pipe has to be used to protect the pipe as it enters the building but how is this capped? He said if expanding foam is used he will fail the installation. He did mention water based foam (wasn't aware such a thing existed?!?) could be used but it's far from perfect.

Thanks very much

 

[Madrab]

Armaflex is stupedous stuff if the budget can support it. Used it a couple of times, would recommend all day long. TuffCoat is the same class O rated but strengthened stuff if I remember, not needed if underfloor.

4" end cap, drill a 40mm hole and get a grommet to fit. Waterpipe/MDPE isn't friends with any solvent based stuff, doesn't comply with the regs.
Used to be able to wrap the pipe then use a water based mortar but think there was something in the regs about not using that anymore.

 

[Charlie6]

Thanks so much, Madrab. I was confused by the price quoted by the water board inspector as regular class O Armaflex seems to be much cheaper than £7/metre.

If I could please trouble you with one final question, are you able to send me a link to the type of cap end and grommet needed?

 

[OuterSpaceHopper]

Hi Charlie, I had an external water pipe replaced by a contractor using a mole, which saved digging up the driveway. Cost £380 for 15 meters of moling and included a trench that had to be dug through concrete to allow the mole to go round a corner at the back of the house.

No inspection by the water company(UU) was required as the contractor had the relevant tickets. The contractor connected the new pipe at the boundary of the property, notified the water company, and then a couple of weeks later, the water companies contractors replaced, free of charge, the very short section of pipe remaining under the street.

Flow rates are now very much better than before. 25mm pipe(I think 22mm inside diameter) was used. I get about 22 liters a minute at the bath tap upstairs.

Nobody asked about the internal pipe work, that had been replaced due to a leak, nor who replaced it.

 

[OuterSpaceHopper]

P.S. I asked for 32mm, but according to the mole contractor, it is up to the water company, and if it is on a hotel or a big house, it is usually declined.

 

[Madrab]

I use a 110mm solvent cap end, drill a 50mm hole and and use a 32mm boss adapter but just searching about I found this, just change the adapter for a 32mm -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/uPVC-Wast...0mm-4-to-40mm-1-1-2-Underground-/251306263903

http://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-boss-adaptor-32mm-pack-of-5/41571

 

[Charlie6]

Very helpful information from Rob and OuterSpaceHopper which has proved very helpful when talking to contractors. I really do appreciate you both taking the time to respond.

Now just need to wait for the quotes to arrive <gulp>

 

[OuterSpaceHopper]

I learned something else too about the boss adapter!

One thing to note from my installation. The contractor was pretty stressed about where to bring the pipe into the house, as the whole house is built on a concrete float. In the end it entered inside the porch, and then through the wall. I've insulated the above ground pipe but this route in has probably left it vulnerable if we ever get really cold weather.

The original lead pipe comes through the concrete floor and after they had gone I chiseled the concrete around the lead pipe and found a conduit(prolly 70mm) through the concrete float, about 15mm below the concrete surface. I haven't dug up the other end, but I would bet that it would have been an easier way to bring the pipe into the house and maintain the depth for frost proofing! I think the lead pipe would have been malleable enough to just pull out.

I'm not sure why the contractor didn't do this, I think he was having a bad day!

It wouldn't be too hard to check for this kind of conduit yourself as I don't think it is the kind of thing they would check just for a quote, i.e. inside with a chisel and outside with a quick inspection trench. This might well impact the amount of work they have to do and the price, especially if they know don't have to drill through the wall and provide an insulated box above ground etc.

 

[OuterSpaceHopper]

It is slightly mad that the water company has to do the last tiny piece of pipe. From the trench that the contractor dug at the edge of my property it would have very easy to just reach in(25cm!) and connect the new pipe the stop valve, without even disturbing the surface.
The contractor said he wasn't permitted to do this, and a couple of days after notification, the water company came round and dug up the pavement.

I've since seen other DIY people connect directly to the stop valve under the pavement after replacing their water pipe, and not notify the water company at all.

Not an option for me because of the concrete drive and the need for a mole, but I don't think I would bother with the contractor again just for the sake of a soil trench.

One other thing to think about, does your external stop valve work OK, and is it dedicated to your house?

If it is stiff, I would be disinclined to force it, as my Dad, who used to be a plumber, told me it is possible to snap them off and have a flood.
UU said they could come and release it, but they could offer no timescale and said it could be months!
If I broke it they said I would be responsible for the damage.

The mole contractor was braver then me and in interests of getting the job done on the day, gave it a proper tweek, with a scaffolding bar on the end of the stop valve key! It did leak afterwards until UU replaced it when they replaced the last short piece of pipe under the pavement.

I had to get the lead pipe replaced because my inside stop valve was jammed open. No chance of freezing(too brittle apparently) the short piece of lead to allow a fix, my Dad was going to just wipe a joint for a new stop valve but in the end I decided to just have the whole pipe replace.
Glad I did as the flow rate was much, much better.

 

[Charlie6]

The external stop tap seems to be fine and only serves my property.

I have now received a quote and would appreciate any comments:

- To lay 25mm MDPE water supply complete with trace wire from the boundary approximately 6m to the front of the property
- The new pipe will continue under the floor complete with lagging to the kitchen stop tap

A mole will be used and the quote amount is £780

 

[OuterSpaceHopper]

Yikes, £780! I wonder why it is so much more than my recent installation with a mole, it isn't like you are in central London!

is the subsurface soil?

Do you absolutely need a mole? i.e. Are you going under any concrete or nice garden? Even if you can't dig the trench yourself, you could pay quite a few groundsmen to dig the 6m trench, and have the water company come and inspect your work, before you back fill. Or get a certified plumber to manage the whole job, including the trench, and not have to bother with the inspection.

Why do they need the trace heating wire? Perhaps it is because the water pipe runs through an unheated part of the house? Or maybe they are going to bring the pipe into the house above ground, which is why they need the trace heating wire, for the box on the wall outside. Say £40 if the trace heating is just for the box, more if is the whole length of the pipe under the floor boards. Is the trace heating going to be installed, or just plugged in to an existing plug? If installed, I suppose there will be a cost associated with an electrical contractor. I don't think the insulated boxes on the outside of the house are cheap, I think about £50.

Are you sure there is no underground conduit through the foundations that could be used? Mine is a 1950's house, but it still had a conduit through the foundations round the old lead pipe. Worth spending a few minutes looking in the obvious places to see if you can find a conduit as there will also be a small ongoing cost to run the trace heating, and replace it when it breaks down. I've no idea how long they last but...

I know they are supposed to replace the whole pipe right up to the internal stop valve, but the regulations for UU say that the stop tap must be immediately at the point of access of the pipe in the house, so I'm unsure why they are also replacing the new pipe you have already had fitted under the floor. Maybe the pipe is cheaper than the stop valve, but you still have to pull it under the floor.

http://www.unitedutilities.com/documents/How_to_lay_a_new_water_supply_pipe.pdf

Does your water company have a scheme for free replacement old lead pipe? i.e. you pay for the pipe and fitting on your property and they connect it up under the street for free? Perhaps your water company does not and the extra cost quoted is associated with the water company's cost of connecting to the stop valve in the road.
Worth checking if this is included, or if the water company will do it for free, or if you have to pay for the final connection yourself.

The gang of water company contractors who connected mine visited twice with four blokes, and left the pavement open for 2 days. Probably a total of 3 hours onsite....