LEDs vs CFLs

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Hi

All the lights in my house were replaced with CFL lamps when I moved in and have been replacing the odd ones as they blow.

As many seem to be on their last legs, should I consider moving to LEDs as the price has come down considerably?

Haven't used any LED lamps with mains electricity yet.

Cheers

G
 
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Most of the lamps I am replacing are the 100W equivalent ones i.e., about 1300 lumens. Does that still hold?

The efficiency of LEDs at that rating doesn't seem much different from CFLs. For 400 lm equivalent lamps the wattage difference seems a lot higher.

Cheers

G
 
have a good look round. Apart from dimmables, which have lower efficiency, LEDs are now around 10 lumens per watt, some are more.

Each generation gets better.

I've noticed that new ones seem brighter than I had expected. It's possible I am taking out old lamps that have dimmed, or it might be that LEDs tend to be a pure white. They are certainly better than the CFLs.

Last time I looked, places like Tesco were retailing at significantly higher prices than Wickes, especially for the higher output lamps equivalent to old 100W GLS, but now it seems to have reversed.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Philips-LED-A---Shape-BC-100W-2700K/p/150559 £9, 13Watts, Lumens: 1521

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=288368210 £7, 14.5 Watts (bad description), Lumens - 1521

cheaper on fleabay.
 
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As that is over twice the price for a similar CFL will it make that much of a saving?

I'm sure the price will continue to come down, but not sure we are at the point where it makes sense to switch.

Cheers

G
 
All the lighting in my flat is LED. Even the 5ft tube in the kitchen is a 22W LED which gives a crisp, blue light better than the previous 58W fluorescent. All others are B22/E27/E14 LEDs of varying wattages up to 12W.
The communal lighting was mainly 16W 2D or 28W 2D fluorescent. As these are failing, they are being replaced with 8 or 9W 6500K LEDs, which give a better light at half the running costs. For me it's LED all the way. The 8/9W LEDs are coming in at around £2.50 each, and the ceramic E27 holders at around £1 each
 
Lower wattage lamps should be £4 each or less in high street shops, about the same as a CFL.
E.g. http://www.wilko.com/led-bulbs/wilko-led-round-opal-bulb-bc-cap-6w-1pk/invt/0437700

I'm leaving my CFLs in place until they fail. Then fitting LEDs.

I made an exception for my porch light which is on all the time. Saving is very small, as you say. Was 8W, now 4W, saves about 35kWh a year, say £5, so pays for itself in a year. Would save £2.50 if I wasted money on a photocell or timer.

Look at your high usage lamps first - hall, landing, porch etc.
 
That makes sense, maybe I'll switch round the lamps as they fail, putting the new LEDs in the high use areas and then any working CFLs in the less used rooms.

Cheers

G
 
One way in which they are not is with radio interference. Some LEDs are awful in this respect.
The LEDs are fine, it's the LED driver or transformer that is responsible for the emissions.
 
The LEDs are fine, it's the LED driver or transformer that is responsible for the emissions.
Of course ... but if one is talking about a 230V LED 'lamp'/'bulb' that circuitry is an integral part of the product.

Kind Regards, John
 
My issue is there is such a range of LEDs. From cheap and nasty to good quality and it is hard to identify which is the best. So for the average consumer there is so much more to consider. Type of LED (cob or smd), beam angles, total lumens, lumens per what, more colour spectrum range.

Furthermore, while the lumen per watt is unquestionably better, the total lumen output for a given bulb may be lower when going from incandescent to CFL to LED.

The drop in total lumens when going from incandescent may be worth the massive gain in efficiency. But, drop from CFL to LED ay not be worth it somtimes

For example, I have 6 ses (e14) golf ball light fittings in my front room.

My choices are:

Halogen e1f gold ball = 42w = 635 lumens

Philips CFL Tornado spiral = 8w = 505 lumens (20% less bright, 80% more efficient compared to the halogen)

5w filament LED = 5w - 450 lumens (30% less bright, 90% more efficient compared to the halogen)

So while the lumens per watt is better for the LED, the CFL still emits more lumens overall while still giving a big reduction in energy use.

For LED, at the moment, for the golf ball type e14 fitting 450 lumens is the maximum available.

So, in my mind, at the moment, I choose the CFL as that still gives a large increase in efficiency but still gives a higher overall light output compared to the LED. If you multiply the lumen output by 6 (the number in my room) that is 330 more lumens I am getting overall with the CFL.

It is not quite as clear cut as it first seems. To me anyway.

There is also the question of light quality. While I do not doubt that LEDs are probably better than CFL, it all depends on the quality of the LED and with LED as I said there seems to be a lot more variability in quality. You can get some awful ones and some great ones.
 
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In the main the compact fluorescent was very poor, but there are exceptions, I have a 13W folded fluorescent as a reading lamp where the tubes seem to last years and the output is as good as any LED lamp. A good fluorescent gives out around 95 lumen per watt and a good LED around 100 lumen per watt and they have around the same life, however there are a lot of bad fluorescent and LED lamps with typical fluorescent and LED replacements for tungsten i.e. BA22d or E27 base dropping to 60 lumen per watt, the two and four pin lamps and 2D range are still classed as compact fluorescent lamps, but they seem to work far better than the BA22d, E27 or E14 lamps.

If I talk about my house, the large living room had two pendent lamps 100W each, these were quickly changed to two fittings each with three bulbs at 40W or 60W aimed for 40W but some times used 60W. As the CFL came out I tried using 11W CFL but they stuck out of the shades and looked rotten. All lamps were BA22d base. When decorating we moved to 5 lamp units and Philips globe CFL at 8W each SES (E14) they to my mind cost a fortune but since claimed to last around 10 years it seemed a good idea. We also did the dining room with matching 3 lamp units.

Within the year lamps were failing, my wife found some cheap 8W CFL globe bulbs slightly larger so you could just see tip of bulb sticking out of the shade, swapped all the 6 lamps in dinning room, and used old bulbs as spares for living room, but by year two we had no spares left, LED's were just coming in, so as a test I bought some 1.6W lamps from lidi to test them in a standard lamp. However on getting home I found two more CFL had failed so put the two lamps in main lighting as a temporary measure until I could find some more globe bulbs, the candle bulb did stick out of the shade a little but did not look too bad, I was rather impressed, although only 1.6W they looked as bright as the CFL at 8W each, so keep my eye open for next time lidi had some in.

Next lot of bulbs from Lidi were 3W I got 8, I would have got 10 had they got them in stock, but they only had 8, on fitting instead of the few remaining 8W CFL the whole room seemed brighter than ever before, I was rather impressed, however although it seemed brighter, I now found I needed a reading lamp where I sat and so did my wife, she claimed the lights got dimmer soon after fitting, but I don't think so, I think the whiter light made us think they were brighter, but noted the camera was now unable to take pictures set to 100 ISO it now needed setting at 400 ISO so clearly not as much light. Latter when rewiring my mothers house we also used two 5 bulb lamps in living room which was smaller than ours, so put our 3 watt lamps in mothers house where we now live, and 5W lamps in our house.

So after some experiments we have moved for 2 x 100W tungsten, to 6 x 40W tungsten, to 10 x 8W CFL to 10 x 5W LED and the latter is the best light we have had in that room. Although if you look at the lumen output it is down from the CFL yet it looks far brighter. All lamps have base at the bottom and face up to white ceiling. With tungsten we noted the ceiling above the lights would yellow likely from the dust circulated due to heat from lights, with the LED lamps it is still white.

Elsewhere we have also used LED bulbs, unlike the tungsten the LED has no output in the direction of the base, so in many holders all light is directed down to carpet, I have noted as a result I have noted they work far better in a chandelier where the bulb faces up, rather than down. And although lumen should relate to how much light is given out it does not quite work that way, I have found with LED you can get away with a lower lumen output.

Other than some very cheap 12 volt spots of 0.58W from pound world non of the LED lamps I have fitted to date have failed, I no longer operate Ham Radio from home so don't know if the produce RF interference, I know the CFL did. I do have some fluorescents left, but most are now LED, in theory the tungsten lamp because it emitted inferred heat so gave a natural boost to heat in the room at night, is more economic than the LED, as it means you don't need programmable TRV's to boost heat in the evening, however the problem with them was their life, one was forever it seems renewing bulbs. By time one includes eTRV heads to the cost so you still get evening boost to heating, it is an expensive exercise moving to LED lights, but having instant light at flick of a switch, although those old Philips CFL globe bulbs which started red and slowly warmed up would not wake my wife on switch on, I in the main like the instant light of the LED.

Because we have some many things which switch out lights which need a small amount of current to flow to work them, and our switching devices in general don't have a neutral so that small current is the only option, each LED light bulb tends to have a small leakage, so fitting 10 lamps is in theory not as efficient as one big one, however the spread of using 10 x 5W instead of 2 x 25W actually means having more lamps works better.

If I return to that one large room which now has 50W of lighting, but started with 200W of lighting it seems LED v tungsten is not as good as the charts show, it shows I should need 36W not 50W, I did try using 28W and it was just a little too dim to read, if the bulbs gave out the full 100 lumen per watt then yes 36W would be enough, however most are around 75 lumen per watt, which is not all bad, it does mean I can use a light switch which can be remotely controlled, can dim or can sense movement, if the bulb did give the full 100 lumen per watt these switches would not work.
 
My issue is there is such a range of LEDs. From cheap and nasty to good quality and it is hard to identify which is the best. So for the average consumer there is so much more to consider. Type of LED (cob or smd), beam angles, total lumens, lumens per what, more colour spectrum range.

Furthermore, while the lumen per watt is unquestionably better, the total lumen output for a given bulb may be lower when going from incandescent to CFL to LED.

The drop in total lumens when going from incandescent may be worth the massive gain in efficiency. But, drop from CFL to LED ay not be worth it somtimes

For example, I have 6 ses (e14) golf ball light fittings in my front room.

My choices are:

Halogen e1f gold ball = 42w = 635 lumens

Philips CFL Tornado spiral = 8w = 505 lumens (20% less bright, 80% more efficient compared to the halogen)

5w filament LED = 5w - 450 lumens (30% less bright, 90% more efficient compared to the halogen)

So while the lumens per watt is better for the LED, the CFL still emits more lumens overall while still giving a big reduction in energy use.

For LED, at the moment, for the golf ball type e14 fitting 450 lumens is the maximum available.

So, in my mind, at the moment, I choose the CFL as that still gives a large increase in efficiency but still gives a higher overall light output compared to the LED. If you multiply the lumen output by 6 (the number in my room) that is 330 more lumens I am getting overall with the CFL.

It is not quite as clear cut as it first seems. To me anyway.

There is also the question of light quality. While I do not doubt that LEDs are probably better than CFL, it all depends on the quality of the LED and with LED as I said there seems to be a lot more variability in quality. You can get some awful ones and some great ones.
I agree with what you say in theory, however I found this was not the case in practice, I replaced Philips CFL with first 3W and then 5W LED lamps, both seemed brighter than the CFL so in my experience the theory and practice don't match. In my room there is no question the 10 x 5W cheap LED from Home Bargains give out more light than the 10 x 8W Phillips globes. Both the way it looks to my eyes, and the setting I need to take a photo. Even the 8 x 3W plus 2 x 1.8W from Lidi looked to my eyes much brighter than the 10 x 8W Phillips however using the camera it did seems not as much light as one thinks. Forget lumen they don't work, they may be in theory what your eye sees, but in practice they don't seem to work out that way.
 
however using the camera it did seems not as much light as one thinks.
The light from ( so called ) high efficiency LED lamps is very often not continuous light but pulses of bright light with gaps of no light. The pulse of light is retained by the retina in the eye ( visual persistance ) so to the brain the lamp appears to be constant and as bright as the pulse. A camera with a fast ( electronic ) shutter may open and close its shutter during the gap between pulses and so it sees nothing of the light from the LED. In reality the shutter is seldom that fast and the sensor in the camera sees several pulses but unlike the eye the camera sensor does not have persistance but instead it averages out the pulses and gaps.

The pulses of light are from current pulses that are often several times the maximum continuous current that the LED element can carry. Provided the average current is less than the maximum continuous current then this pulsed production of light gives a brighter light ( as seen by eyes ) at a lower power consumption.
 

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