Legality of Downlights btw Floors in victorian flat

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Hi all

I've just purchased a 1st floor victorian flat. I am looking to install acoustic insulation batts into the floor void as part of my refurbishment, but have noted that the ground floor flat has installed halogen downlights into the celing / floor void. I can see these through the existing floor boards. They are open at the back and have no ceramic covers.

Is this legal? Looks a bit dodgy to me even without the issue of batts as these are old timbers.

Does anyone know if batts can go into the void around a light fitting even with fire resistant fittings?

Hope the 2nd questions isn't off tpoic.

Cheers, Russ
 
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I think if you check with your local council - building regulations squad, they will let you know what their view is on fitting down lighters into ceiling spaces (without proper fire hoods) below habitable rooms.
The last time I checked they had to be 60 minute fire rated and I may be wrong but the ceilings should be double boarded.

I would not fit batts on top of exposed down lighters. You can get boxes (or you can make some up) that keep the batts off the back of the fittings and allow the heat to dissipate.
 
Both 422.3.1 and 422.4.2 in the BS7671:2008 wiring regulations require a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
If one looks at most houses there is not 0.5m between ceiling and floor boards of room above so they can't be fitted. Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements. i.e. when using hoods designed for the job.
NOTE 2: Luminaires marked
F.JPG
accordance with BS EN 60598-1 are suitable for mounting on a normally flammable surface.
 
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Seems dodgy to me, and a breach of fire regulations in that there is no effective fire barrier between the flats.

The local building control could issue an enforcement notice to have the lamps removed or fitted in such a way as to ensure the fire protection was restored.

Is it a lease hold flat ? Sometimes there is a clause in the lease documents for a flat that prohibits the new owner from doing any work that would comprise the safety of the occupants of other flats in the building. If there is such a clause in your lease then it probably also exists in the lease for the flat below you. They cannot then complain as they have broken the terms of their purchase contract.
 
Both 422.3.1 and 422.4.2 in the BS7671:2008 wiring regulations require a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
If one looks at most houses there is not 0.5m between ceiling and floor boards of room above so they can't be fitted. Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements. i.e. when using hoods designed for the job.
NOTE 2: Luminaires marked
F.JPG
accordance with BS EN 60598-1 are suitable for mounting on a normally flammable surface.

Doesn't this only relate to the surface the lamp is projecting on to? I'm gonna learn something new if it isn't.

As for the lights in the ceiling i think it is correct that between dwellings a 60min fire barrier does have to be maintained. The floor must remain structurally stable for 60mins after a fire has broken out. As has already been said contact your local LABC. Is the ceiling lath and plaster or plasterboard?
 
As well as fire, the accoustic performance of the ceiling is also an issue - any holes in the ceiling will significantly increase the amount of noise transferred between the two flats.
 
Yes, but do the fire resistance and accoustic regs apply to an old existing building where (from the sound of it) the ceiling is not fire-rated in any case?

I don't know, Building Regs Part B apply to new build, but do they apply retrospectively if a building becomes a block of flats?
 
Both 422.3.1 and 422.4.2 in the BS7671:2008 wiring regulations require a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
If one looks at most houses there is not 0.5m between ceiling and floor boards of room above so they can't be fitted. Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements. i.e. when using hoods designed for the job.
NOTE 2: Luminaires marked
F.JPG
accordance with BS EN 60598-1 are suitable for mounting on a normally flammable surface.

Doesn't this only relate to the surface the lamp is projecting on to? I'm gonna learn something new if it isn't.

I'm certain that you're right Dunc. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Eric?
 
Thanks for the responses all. I'll speak to the LABC in the next couple of days. You have reinforced what I assumed might be the case, and given me a couple of good ideas & infor as well, cheers.

Ceilings are lath & plaster.

Looks like it might be a good thing I purchased the entire freehold with my flat - I technically own the ceiling / floor void so that gives me another stick should I need to wave it. Am hoping the lure of getting sound insulation outweighs the disbenefit to the ground floor leaseholder of having to replace their light fitings. I understand they brought it from an architect who did the refurb and put them in - go figure.

Intersting point about the 0.5m distance between flammable materials - i've seen thes elights in almost every property I know and now wonder how many of them are actually specified correctly. Quite worrying as they give off so much heat.
 
Intersting point about the 0.5m distance between flammable materials - i've seen thes elights in almost every property I know and now wonder how many of them are actually specified correctly. Quite worrying as they give off so much heat.

I really don't think this is the case. If the light is mounted directly to a flammable surface then it is dangerous. The reason i doubt this is on the basis of manufacturers would not make these lights if they couldn't be fitted in a ceiling void. Reading most recessed light manufacturers instructions the use of a 35W lamp makes them F rated. It is against the law for them to claim that they can be F rated if they can't. Just look here. You can clearly see that these recessed lights carry the F mark and they are not even fire rated.
 
Dunc

you are confusing F-rated (can be mounted on a flammable surface)
with
Fire Rated (limits the spread of fire through the accessory).

They are not the same thing!!
 
Yes, but do the fire resistance and accoustic regs apply to an old existing building where (from the sound of it) the ceiling is not fire-rated in any case?

Speaking from memory I am sure that any building converted to any form of multiple occupancy must have fire rated ceilings and walls between the various occupant's areas. The duration of resistance is designed to delay the spread of fire long enough for all occupiers to become aware of the fire in other area and to then react and make a safe escape from the building.
 
Both 422.3.1 and 422.4.2 in the BS7671:2008 wiring regulations require a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
If one looks at most houses there is not 0.5m between ceiling and floor boards of room above so they can't be fitted. Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements. i.e. when using hoods designed for the job.
NOTE 2: Luminaires marked
F.JPG
accordance with BS EN 60598-1 are suitable for mounting on a normally flammable surface.

I thought these distances where in relation to the lamp ie below the fitting. I also thought they came about as a responce to the Windsor Castle Fire which came from a lamp too close to a curtain.

As for going to the LBCO - surely knocking on our neighbours door and speaking to them first is the way to go.
Going to the LBC first and then coming down all heavy will surely ruin your neighbourly relationship. Having a **** relationship with your neighbours can be very tiring and IIWY I would try to maintain it if possible.
Go speak to your neighbour - explain what you're doing and what you have found concerning the lights. Explain you're concerned about spread of fire and that you may go to the LBCO to get clarification about the regs.
If they get funny tell them that because you are both aware of the issue, if you do nothing then your building insurance is invalid ~AND as the Landlord for the freehold you have legal responsibilities to follow this through.
let us know how you get on.
 
Pengwyn is right, don't go in guns blazing. When I suggested you get in touch with the BCO, it was to get advise as to what they expect/regulations regarding spots. With that information you can then approach your neighbour, so that you are not going in saying "I think this not allowed".

The regs quoted are for the minimum distances from the front of the fitting (the beam as it were) to flammable surfaces. Normally the light fitting manufacturer specifies what they consider a safe distance from joists and the like, normally 80 to 150mm from the ones I have installed over the years. The F Mark is to do with the actual ceiling that it is being fitted into, like lath and plaster is considered flammable so you need to make sure the fittings are safe to fit into flammable ceilings.
 

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