Lighting Help Please

[Deleted2797112]

Hello, newbie here - be gentle please! I'm putting a new light on a staircase. It has two switches, one at the top and one at the bottom of the stairs. There are other lights in the circuit upstairs. I'm leaving out the earths in this description as the new light fitting is double insulated and the instructions say to join all the earths onto a connector block, tape it up and push it back into the ceiling cavity which I've done.

When I opened the old rose, there were two cables each with red and black wires and one cable with red, blue and yellow wires. The three red wires were wired into the centre section of the rose. The yellow wire was wired into the section with the brown wire that goes down to the old light. The blue wire and the two black wires were wired into the section with the blue wire that goes down to the old light (the two black wires were in a single hole).

From reading around here and looking at the diagrams, I worked out that the cables with red and black are the live loop and the cable with red. blue and yellow is the switch cable. The new light fitting only has two holes for brown and blue. So, I wired the three reds into a connector box and pushed it out of the way. I wired the yellow to the brown hole in the new fitting and twisted the two black wires and the blue wire together and wired them into the blue hole in the new fitting.

When I turned the power back on the new light works and both the upstairs and downstairs switch work too. BUT, the other lights upstairs which I assume are fed by the stair light have stopped working. Nothing has gone bang and the consumer unit hasn't tripped. What have I done wrong please?

Thanks for reading!

 

[EFLImpudence]

Well done for noting where the wires went.

If I have read correctly all seems ok - except I cannot see a purpose for the blue (of the RYB cable) to be connected to the Neutrals.
Can you have a look in the switch and see if it is connected?

Apart from that I can only suggest that one of the reds or one of the blacks is not connected properly. Perhaps the end has snapped or the insulation is under the screw of the terminal.

 

[Deleted2797112]

Thanks for replying. I'll have to wait until daylight to check the switch. If I turn the power off now, it's pitch black in the hall!

I'd been reading here before dismantling the old light so knew I had to note what was where. I took some photos then drew it out so I could compare with the diagrams in the Wiki.

i'll come back in the morning.

 

[TheGayOwl]

Concur with Earth Fault Loop.

Sounds like a red (live) is not feeding the other lighting points or a black (neutral) is not allowing a return path thus completing the circuit. Check over all the connections (especially reds/blacks) and try again.

 

[Deleted2797112]

Good morning! Right, I've opened up the switch and it has a red, black and yellow wired into it. Inside the box, there's a black and a blue terminated in a connector which is covered with insulating tape. Does that mean I should remove the blue from the connection with the two blacks in the new light and terminate it in the same way? Or is it not doing any harm where it is?

Will now check all the connections.

Edited to add: Have now checked the three reds and they are rock solid in the connector. Took them out anyway and re-did them and I can't pull them out by tugging on them. Tested the lights again and it's the same. The new light works, the rest of the upstairs lights don't. Could the blue that I wired in with the two blacks be causing the problem seeing as it's terminated at the switch?

Another update. I removed the blue from the two blacks and put it in a separate small connector block taped up. Now neither the new light or the other upstairs lights are working.

And another. I've put the blue back with the two blacks. The connector block in the new light was very small and had tiny holes and it was difficult getting the two blacks and one blue into it so I've swapped it out for a slightly larger one and connected the blacks and blue to the blue out to the light and the yellow to the brown out to the light. And I'm back where I started this morning. The new light works but the upstairs lights don't.

After two days, I've a stair light half up and no lights at all upstairs and I don't know what to try next. Does anyone have any ideas please?

Thank you!

 

[Deleted2797112]

Is either of these significant:

On the old rose, the two blacks were wired into a single hole alongside the blue in a separate hole and the outgoing blue also in a separate hole.

When I opened up the switch to check the blue. it's on a taped up block with a black.

Thanks!

Edited to add: The switch I opened up is the upstairs one nearest the light. Downstairs, the switch is the end one of four on one plate. I had a quick look inside but it's spaghetti junction. Apart from all the reds there is one black, one blue and one yellow connected at different places across the four switches.

 

[sparkwright]

The red, yellow and blue is quite normal; it sounds like a way of getting a neutral via a switch cable.

You need to check all wires are connected properly.

Have you done any work somewhere else that could have disturbed some wiring (even in another room)?

Are you certain the wires went where you said (sounds feasible)?

Make sure the power is off before you start work.

 

[Spark123]

You haven't screwed through a cable mounting the new light have you??
First step would be to check, with a multimeter, that there is a permanent live supply at the light. If you are not sure on how to do this you may be better getting an electrician in.

 

[Deleted2797112]

Hi sparkwright, thanks for replying.

Since the upstairs lights stopped working I've remade all the connections three times I think and they all seem secure to me.

There's no work been done anywhere else for several months.

I took a photograph of what was there before and drew a diagram from it. There were two thick red wires and one thinner red wire wired into the 3-hole centre section of the old rose. In a 2-hole section of the old rose there was the yellow and the outgoing brown. In a 3-hole section of the old rose there were 2 blacks (in one hole), the blue and the outgoing blue. As far as I can see, the new set-up mirrors this. The three reds are in a taped up block in the ceiling cavity. The yellow goes into the outgoing brown. The two blacks and blue go into the outgoing blue.

Some of this must be right because the new light works from both the switches?

Can the earths be involved in this? As mentioned previously they don't get connected to the light as it's double insulated. I put them all on a block and taped it up but I noticed that one of the wires isn't sleeved all the way along it's length - it only has a short piece of sleeving loose at the end I've connected so there is some bare earth wire exposed in the ceiling cavity.

 

[Spark123]

It won't be anything to do with the earths or the sleeving.
I don't like the idea of taping up connectors and shoving them through the ceiling, is there no space in the fitting for them?
As I said above, the first logical step is to make sure that there is a permanant live supply at the light, which should be onto the 3 reds together.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I can only agree with Spark123.

The wiring at the rose appears to be quite straightforward (apart from blue).

At the switch, though, Red, Yellow, Blue plus two blacks is puzzling.
You will need to test to determine which wire goes where.

Although if you have connected as it was before it should work.

 

[Spark123]

The blue is probably going to be the neutral supply. The two blacks the neutrals out to the other lights.

 

[EFLImpudence]

One of the blacks is connected to the switch so the neutral 'supply' (black/blue connection) could be the other way around. No way of telling.

 

[Spark123]

I know, it depends which way the wind was blowing and the side of the bed the electrician who installed it got out of that day.

As a guess, the black in the switch could be a completely separate cable, possibly two 2c&e strappers providing two way switching, live and neutral.

Maybe the OP could upload some photos??

 

[Deleted2797112]

I'm hoping I might be getting somewhere! Thanks for all the support so far. As advised I've been looking at the 3 reds. There was nothing supplied with the light to join these together so I got one that hadn't been needed from another new light fitted a few months elsewhere. It was a little hinged plastic box with a 6 hole connector inside - 3 holes on each side of the block. I had wired the three reds separately into one hole each on the same side. Looking closely at the connector, the brass fittings inside the plastic block are 3 separate tubes that aren't connected in any way and don't touch each other. Have I found the answer - don't the wires need to be in contact with each other via the brass fittings? If so, how do I join the reds. I've got some of the normal lego type strip connectors but that seems to be the same.

To answer a question earlier, the space inside the new light fitting is very limited. It's like an upside down biscuit tin lid. There's a transformer (?) in the middle and the mountings and wires for 5 lights in the space between the transformer and the rim. It was difficult getting everything to lie flat inside, partly because there's no slack on the cables from the ceiling. That's why I put the reds on a block, insulated well and tucked into the cavity.