Liz Truss Said

[motorbiking]

Productivity and margin are not the same thing though. Productivity is related to how much is produced per person, whereas margin is related to how much profit should be made per item produced.
Obviously if productivity reduces, so does the margin, but whether a particular sector is high or low margin isn't relevant.

Productivity is affected by so many factors aside from the one Liz Truss herself was heard to suggest - that workers in this country are lazy.

Some other reasons:
Poor working conditions
Lack of investment in tools, machinery, technology, software, training
Lack of options for progression
Bosses who aren't good motivators, or worse, actually demotivate workers
Lack of incentives
Poor health, perhaps due to poverty

I could go on...

I didn't want to use the term low value - its not nice to say a job is low value. I would have been jumped on. The fact is, that its all about the value generated by the hour worked. Countries that are able to generate income with minimal hours worked do very well. Ireland is a good example. A lot of high techs channel sales through Ireland due to the tax regime. They will use Electronic delivery clauses in the contract typically and say it was fulfilled from Ireland even though the sales team is UK based. its all a tax dodge.

The same applies to Denmark with regard to IP royalty fees. Literally money for almost nothing. The fact is these regimes are parasitical to their neighbours. I'm not saying the UK doesn't have its fair share (financial services for example). But the point I was making is that poor productivity is not linked necessarily to lazy workers. It is potentially linked to the gig economy however.

You're right that its not margin - its money generated per hour of work. That said - it tends to go with high profit industries.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Absolutely right. I get what you're saying. Financial centres have higher productivity not because the employees work harder, but because they are able to generate more income per hour worked.

That's why it's better in some ways to compare such metrics as the number of units produced per person per year in a given sector in one country or another. Who is fairing better? Then it's the difficult job of working out the reason(s) a worker produces more or less cars in the UK than they do in Japan, for example. The answer is almost never a simple one.

 

[Deleted member 294929]

I will cut taxes to reward hard work....

Isn't that just another way of saying that higher wage earners will pay less tax and low earning folk more?

You need to do a day Plumbing

 

[^woody^]

I could go on...

No, I'll stop you there.

Productivity is not the sum of things made or work done. It is the combination of those factors plus time and plus cost and minus expenses - and including other things like added value or unquantifiable things that ironically need quantifying.

So, let's say we have some train driver on £60k a year, free travel, free other perks and a good pension pot, and works only 35 hours a week. That could be deemed unproductive, even though the train driver may think he should have more money and spend even less time sitting at the front of a train turning a lever for a few hours.

Let's contrast that with some delivery driver, on minimum wage, perhaps S/E too so no wage when not working, no perks, no free stuff, no pension, no burden on the company employing him, and yet he works 70 hours a week. Some may say that is very productive.

Now the aforementioned train driver thinks he is hyper-productive, doing a fabulous job for himself and society. And yet he's actually an unproductive liability - but he aims to do even less for even more money.

However the delivery driver is seen as unproductive, even though he's working all the hours he can, nonstop and being paid a pittance for his labour, whilst his customers are ordering more and more parcels and tracking his every move waiting for the knock on the door expressing their gratitude with "you're late" - so he aims to do even more for even less money.

The reasons you cite are classic Labour spiel. The downtrodden worker and evil business owner making money from their toil under work-house conditions. When really, there is a fundamental attitude of entitlement, of the 'something for nothing welfare state paying for everything' mindset, and the less one does the better.

So, for increased productively (read less liability on/for the state) there needs to be not only opportunity, but also aspiration, and people need to think about not only their personal entitlement, but personal responsibility to society - ironically that's a socialist attitude, and yet the likes of our train drivers and their Union puppeteers and others are acting like the worst capitalists. Me, me, me.

 

[ellal]

Liz truss has probably said to herself...

I seem to have f*cked up already'!

Sterling plunges to lowest level against the US dollar since 1985

"Investors dump British assets amid concerns that tax cuts and increased public spending under a new government could make the UK's economic situation even worse."

UK inflation was already the highest of the G7 economies, and a recession has been forecast by analysts for months.

But now Liz Truss has replaced Boris Johnson as prime minister, vowing to help people cope with rapidly rising energy bills but at the same time making it clear she wants to cut taxes.

She has also ruled out extending a windfall tax on oil and gas companies, leaving little option apart from increasing government borrowing to fund her promise.

The pound's dire performance will also make the Bank of England more likely to hike interest rates when its monetary policy committee meets next week."


How long do you think she'll last?

 

[ellal]

So, for increased productively (read less liability on/for the state) there needs to be not only opportunity, but also aspiration, and people need to think about not only their personal entitlement, but personal responsibility to society - ironically that's a socialist attitude, and yet the likes of our train drivers and their Union puppeteers and others are acting like the worst capitalists. Me, me, me.

I took a module at university in a subject not to do with my main one...

It was basic politics, and the lecturer split us into two groups - Unions and Employers.

A basic wage discussion was held, and at the end the arbiter (lecturer) came up with a solution that didn't really satisfy anyone.

But his reasoning was that you both gained a bit, but if there was no agreement this would go on forever...

And everyone would lose!

Nothing much has changed except the rich/poor and rich/middle class and also middle class/poor divides have widened massively...

So where do you suppose the opportunities and aspiration will come from given those divides?

 

[Diver Fred]

Even more convinced we have another self centred person as PM. Not even an amusement factor built in...

Anyone who wants rice pud in their cabinet worries me.

 

[transam]

Good old Smogg

He is in favour of fracking and opening up new oil and gas fields in the North Sea

Blokes an asset to any government

 

[Odds]

That just gives workers the right to not be forced to work more than 48 hours a week by their employer. They have every right to work longer hours should they so wish.
It amazes me that anyone would think taking away workers' rights is a good thing. Unless, of course you would like to exploit workers or enjoy being exploited yourself.
While we're at it, why don't we do away with the 40 hour working week, the two day weekend, sick pay, holiday pay, parental rights, health and safety law? Just a few of the benefits that unions have fought for over many years so that workers aren't exploited, can have a better work life balance, and generally better working conditions.

The irony of hearing that from Ronnie 'Union-buster' Reagan is exquisite.

 

[ajohn]

its not nice to say a job is low value.

If it is then it will usually yield a low salary but what ever the business is it needs to show a profit. Ideally it needs to generate a trade surplus or things go on as they are. It's tricky to see how the areas you mention can do that. I worked for a company that outsourced IT support. They made a bit of a mess of some equipment selection so I took that over for a while. The original usage support continued after I dropped out. It didn't take the company long to realise they were being ripped off so they employed a couple of people to do it. It then turned out that critical info stored on the gear wasn't backed up any more and that was corrected. The kit these people chose was best for them - not the company. Not that big a company either. It sold for ~£22m when a USA interest sold it on. When some company uses some one who knows about a subject and they don't it often tends to have this result.

It is potentially linked to the gig economy however.

I wonder about that general area in terms of hours worked. If I remember correctly for gov support people need to work for 16hr or more. While some degree of work brings down unemployment figures what does this mean in real terms. Looks like they need more work to be able to support themselves. Productivity? I wondered how this is calculated. A bit here, scotland but probably applies to all

Real terms measures of GDP per hour workedcan be used to analyse within-country movements in labour productivity over time and enable a comparison of growth rates between countries.

From

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/factsheet/2019/08/labour-productivity-methods/documents/labour-productivity-user-guide-2019/labour-productivity-user-guide-2019/govscot%3Adocument/labour-productivity-user-guide-2019.pdf

 

[ajohn]

Investors dump British assets amid concerns that tax cuts and increased public spending under a new government could make the UK's economic situation even worse."

This part is correct
The pound has lost more than 15% against the dollar so far this year, hurt by both the dollar's strength and the gloomy economic outlook for the UK.

One of our official bodies mentioned that we have done worse than other currencies against the dollar but no one has said how much of that isn't down to an increase in the price of the dollar. Info on Purchasing power parities (PPP) is needed over time.

LOL I think it is anyway as trying to find out what the real changes are.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

No, I'll stop you there.

Productivity is not the sum of things made or work done. It is the combination of those factors plus time and plus cost and minus expenses - and including other things like added value or unquantifiable things that ironically need quantifying.

So, let's say we have some train driver on £60k a year, free travel, free other perks and a good pension pot, and works only 35 hours a week. That could be deemed unproductive, even though the train driver may think he should have more money and spend even less time sitting at the front of a train turning a lever for a few hours.

Let's contrast that with some delivery driver, on minimum wage, perhaps S/E too so no wage when not working, no perks, no free stuff, no pension, no burden on the company employing him, and yet he works 70 hours a week. Some may say that is very productive.

Now the aforementioned train driver thinks he is hyper-productive, doing a fabulous job for himself and society. And yet he's actually an unproductive liability - but he aims to do even less for even more money.

However the delivery driver is seen as unproductive, even though he's working all the hours he can, nonstop and being paid a pittance for his labour, whilst his customers are ordering more and more parcels and tracking his every move waiting for the knock on the door expressing their gratitude with "you're late" - so he aims to do even more for even less money.

The reasons you cite are classic Labour spiel. The downtrodden worker and evil business owner making money from their toil under work-house conditions. When really, there is a fundamental attitude of entitlement, of the 'something for nothing welfare state paying for everything' mindset, and the less one does the better.

So, for increased productively (read less liability on/for the state) there needs to be not only opportunity, but also aspiration, and people need to think about not only their personal entitlement, but personal responsibility to society - ironically that's a socialist attitude, and yet the likes of our train drivers and their Union puppeteers and others are acting like the worst capitalists. Me, me, me.

Classic case of deliberately inferring your own biases, or ignoring the actual point I was making, in order to make a point of your own : i.e. that British employees are lazy good for nothings who are always on the make for themselves at the expense of - and this is always the case - “me, because I work bloody hard and pay my tax and no-one ever gave me anything, and I’ve never had any Union to look after me, so why should they, and I haven’t had a pay rise for years so why should they?”

The point I was making is that there are many many factors at play that affect productivity, not just how hard a person is willing to work.

As I mentioned above, a better metric is to look at output, although this is still influenced hugely by factors such as the ones I mentioned above. A person will take much longer to dig a foundation if they only have a pick and a spade than if they have a JCB, for example, but the guy with the pick and spade is certainly working much harder.

I agree that people have personal responsibility, and responsibility to society, but you are making the assumption that their ability to be productive is influenced by nothing other than their desire to work hard. My whole point was that there’s much more at play than that.

 

[noseall]

Good old Smogg

He is in favour of fracking and opening up new oil and gas fields in the North Sea

Blokes an asset to any government

 

[ajohn]

Smogg is responsible for meeting energy requirements. A known climate change sceptic. It seems he has changed his mind and realised it's a serious problem now.

However some one recorded him talking to some people while canvassing. One was saying we beat the germans during the wars. Mogg's reply an emphatic yes we did. He'd do the same sort of thing talking to climate change sceptics.

 

[transam]

Yep tis true he is an asset to government