manchester building control- BAS please read...

[partpdoctor]

so then guys,
in view of all this.... i need a stategy....

1 as per my oldham incident i tell em and they fold

2 they tell me they are not playing- i send form and fee and then ignore any sabre rattling from them as i have complied with "law"---
i dont see any way forward if this happens. i have my tester and 27 years exp AND i teach others how to do i&t& paperwork- no-one is messing with my job

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But them accepting your certificates does nothing to resolve the issue of them refusing to test work notified by people who aren't qualified to issue an EIC...

 

[partpdoctor]

BAS
you are being very cryptic

 

[Spark123]

The law requires "P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury. "
One method of complying with the above is to work to BS7671. This is not the only way to comply with P1 though.
The likes of yourself can comply with BS7671 in full without a problem and issue certificates to show you have complied.
A DIYer in their own home may not be in such a position to satisfy BS7671 in respect of inspection, testing and certification.
Where they have paid a fee to the LABC, the LABC should carry out any inspection and testing to satisfy them that P1 of the building regs has been complied with at their expense - not that of the householder.

 

[Cremeegg]

So far as the costs of testing goes I've found this buried in the depths of a 300 page review of the competent persons schemes.

Monitoring of Electrical Safety Competent Person Self-Certification Schemes
BD 2612
May 2008
Communities and Local Government


Para 4.5 pages 34 & 35

When electrical installation work is carried out by persons who are not qualified to complete the appropriate BS 7671 requirements for inspection, testing, verification and certification, the relevant local authority building control department must decide to what extent it will be necessary to inspect and test the electrical work in order to verify that the work is safe and complies with all the relevant requirements of Building Regulations. Building control bodies may choose to carry out the inspection and testing themselves, or they may engage a competent electrical contractor to carry out the verification work on their behalf. Building control bodies must carry out the necessary inspection and testing at their expense, not at the householders’ expense. In either of the cases mentioned, a BS 7671 Electrical Installation Certificate will not be issued (as these can only be issued by those carrying out the work). After verification of the work the building control body will issue a Building Regulations completion certificate.

 

[partpdoctor]

hi
cheers for all that...
i will fill the forms and slap in the fee and take it from there

i will keep you posted
alan

 

[partpdoctor]

hi
i thought i would keep you up to speed on developments.....
i had a pint/chat with my old friend and explained in detail....

1 work before part p
2 "correct" work after part p
3 how it is in reality
4 the local bc view and their bending/breaking of procedure

i then explained our options...

1 run it through work legally if you like
2 go through bc, have aggro and take them on....
3 do the job properly and tell no-one

left it to him and he chose option 3

it really works this part poo, between the govt; scheme; local bs's
a complete joke

 

[Spark123]

I agree with you entirely, I might be a little bit on the cautious side of publishing a book with pictures of yourself doing notifiable work to the 17th edition illegally though!!

 

[Paul5152]

To me this exemplifies the massive flaw with part P in particular, and building regs in general.

If I was getting a "random" electrician from the yellow pages to do some work for me, then buildings regs would be a good 'safety net', but if either I'm doing the work and am competent, or I am confident in the electrician who is doing the work, then buildings regs just gets in the way and adds extra expense, difficulty and trouble.

All it does is encourage people not to do things properly. If I could, for instance, run a new circuit consisting of a 2 metre cable from the CU to a burglar alarm, get a BCO out to have a look, let him have a poke around the installation and show him my test results (and do the tests in front of him if necessary) and pay him £50 there wouldn't be an issue. But, he wants to have two site visits to look at first fix and second fix (for a 2 metre cable run in trunking FFS.. (and why, if he doesn't understand electrics?)) and have me pay £270 for a job that would take 30 minutes and cost <£20 in materials.

A quicker/cheaper check-up would quickly find the people who wire 13A sockets with bell wire (and they could still do that now...) or those who put a new ring in without doing any tests at all. Really that's all that's needed. An installation certificate and a quick visual check should suffice for ANY installer (unless the visual check shows issues).

If a BCO doesn't understand enough electrics to know what's safe and what's not, then they should get BCOs who can! Somehow they know about everything else.

Apparently there were about 10 deaths a year prior to 2005 due to 'electrical faults' in the home. Most of these were probably due to mis-use or faulty appliances. AFAIAA there were no statistics published about how many were due to faulty installations. It would be interesting to know whether this has gone down or up after 2005...

 

[Yanni]

Just to let you know that I have just completed an almost complete rewiring with Manchester Building control on a DIY basis.

I just wanted you to know that Manchester building control haven't got any qualified electricians and they ask you to make sure you certify your own work. As you are a DIYer you can't certify your own work. Also, no electrician would certify your work unless he does it himself.

The middle solution I found with them was to finish the work, call them to tell them that I have completed the work, they came with a socket tester and tested a few plugs. Then as I was unable to find someone to certify the work, they've accepted a PIR.

To be honest don't get paranoid about the details of the law. They won't even bother with the 17th edition. The PIR I did was very basic and the electrician apparently had not updated himself to the 17th ed.

He wrote on the suggestions box that I would change the FREEZER RCBO to a normal MCB to avoid tripping. I put the freezer circuit on an RCBO on the none RCD side of a split unit. It's on an RCBO as the plug is located in the downstairs kitchen and can be used to supply equipment outdoors. The electrician was over 80 years old, or this is how old he looked !

Just do the best you can, work out the circuits, modifications etc, make some basic tests and then let the PIR find any problems, if any.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To be honest don't get paranoid about the details of the law.

Even though because of their appalling delinquency you've been put to extra expense?

You paid their fee, for which they did virtually nothing, and they made you pay for an electrician to do a PIR.

 

[Yanni]

I guess you are right bas, now I'm thinking about it I've paid £99 for what ?

The building surveyor told me that I should have notify them to inspect first fix. However, when I rung them the guy on the phone told me to finish everything and then they will come.

When the building surveyor came to my property and was told of that she said "How typical !, the guy on the phone is actually a musician, he doesn't care less about his job ! "...it sounds to me like some kind of Polish civil servant working for Manchester building control !

 

[Pensdown]

anyhow i thought i would bring my notepad and camera and make it a new 17th edition part p doctor project...so this time i am doing it outside the nic self cert scheme just to make it more interesting.

So in support of all DIYers you should do the re-wire by the book and force the local BC to do the same, whatever that entails.

I don't recall reading the section in either the approved document or the SI where it allows the installer or BC to make up their own rules.

If you pay their fee they must at their expense and by whatever means they choose , satisfy themselves that the installation meets P1. If it does they must issue you with a building regulations completion certificate.

For a notified DIY installation electrical test certificates are not relevant. It's the building regs completion certificate that is relevant and that's what their fee is for.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's a shame there aren't enough people who care about this to set up a PledgeBank commitment to contribute to the legal costs of the first person to push back all the way on an LABC acting wrongly...

 

[partpdoctor]

mmmm, interesting comments pensdown.....

i will chat to my friend again as i would relish the row.....
as was said many times "any publicity is good publicity"

as far as i understand

1 i send form and fee
2 crack on with project
3 ball is firmly then in their court.....

i suppose the ideal situation is for them to kick off and then hunt me down for prosecution for non-compliance of non-existent rules....