marks and spencer

[Ric2013]

Hmm. An interesting one. I once applied for a job at a local Coop, then decided I wouldn't feel comfortable selling people tobacco products and withdrew my application. In my case this was a moral decision, not a religious one, but I considered that selling tobacco would be an integral part of the job so hardly worth trying to negotiate.

If this M&S policy causes customer inconvenience, this would not, however, be staff fault, but managerial ineptitude. Many customers are not buying pork or alcohol and this system could work in a large shop but there needs to adequate signage to direct the customers to the appropriate tills.

Rather than people getting upset with each other, I'd far rather see a pragmatic approach adopted.

 

[sooey]

So, you rightly thought that applying for a job involving selling stuff that you personally had a problem with was wrong.
But you want to make allowances for muslims who have done exactly that. Why?

 

[longdogs]

Does this mean I can refuse to remove my shoes when working in their homes?

 

[ajstoneservices]

Now we know why you're not earning enough.

 

[LastMagicBean]

Hmm. An interesting one. I once applied for a job at a local Coop, then decided I wouldn't feel comfortable selling people tobacco products and withdrew my application. In my case this was a moral decision, not a religious one, but I considered that selling tobacco would be an integral part of the job so hardly worth trying to negotiate.

If this M&S policy causes customer inconvenience, this would not, however, be staff fault, but managerial ineptitude. Many customers are not buying pork or alcohol and this system could work in a large shop but there needs to adequate signage to direct the customers to the appropriate tills.

Rather than people getting upset with each other, I'd far rather see a pragmatic approach adopted.

The worlds gone completely bonkers.

Let's have a 'not too keen on jaffa cakes' checkout.
Hang on ... what about a 'don't you dare put lettuces in front of me' checkout.

I've been warning people for years about this nonsense, It's finally happening.

 

[gas112]

As wages directly come from profit made by the company the company know how much profit is made from alcohol and pork sales.
So as these employees have a moral stand point deduct there wages by the equivalent percentage of the profits made from the sale of these items

 

[Ric2013]

So, you rightly thought that applying for a job involving selling stuff that you personally had a problem with was wrong.
But you want to make allowances for muslims who have done exactly that. Why?

In my case, it was a small coop with one counter: impractical to modify the job description. It would NOT have been wrong for me to try to negotiate, simply I could not see how the management could have used me.

In a large supermarket, it may be different. There will be many counters, and if lots of customers are Muslim, they won't be buying much meat or booze anyway. However, from a practical point, this may even pay off: in areas with many Muslims M&S will get to choose the cream of the cream of Muslim applicants, just as Victorian Quaker employers (eg Cadbury's) had the most applicants for their factory positions.

Of course, if it ends up being a massive ball ache for management and customers alike, it's a pretty silly plan. My point was just that if M&S can allow some negotiation on job descriptions to the benefit of its staff without it causing anyone a problem, that's not a bad thing, they just need to make sure they succeed.

 

[tony1851]

Many customers are not buying pork or alcohol and this system could work in a large shop but there needs to adequate signage to direct the customers to the appropriate tills.

Ridiculous.
That's like segregation - the thin end of a very long wedge.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ridiculous.

Quite.


Ah, an empty aisle! Oh no, I have sausages so will have to queue.


A lot of people are over-thinking this.
It is not a problem.
She is refusing to do the job for which she was hired. Therefore ...

This cannot be the first time this has come up.
I suspect a trouble-maker for whatever reason(s).

 

[Ric2013]

She is refusing to do the job for which she was hired. Therefore ...

If that's the case fair enough, I agree. I don't know the exact circumstances as I have only read the Telegraph article posted above and have no inside information. In spite of the attention-grabbing headline, all the article actually says is that M&S has chosen to let staff opt out from selling certain items, not that staff are now refusing to carry out their jobs and, as such, any inconvenience to the customer is the responsibility of the manager.

The example given of a cashier 'refusing' to sell certain items was a cashier who had presumably agreed this with her manager in advance. At this point, the cashier is not being difficult any more than an employee that insists on taking his holiday entitlement, but it does show that the system is not working as it should.

 

[Brigadier]

There will be many counters, and if lots of customers are Muslim, they won't be buying much meat or booze anyway.

Bit of a generalisation - if a Muslim wants a bit of booze, or a bacon sandwich, don't worry, they'll have it. They don't all toe the party line, you know.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Well actually, I was in my local Pharmacist, and whilst I was waiting for my medication, I scrolled through the isle and saw bug eradicating products such as flea spray, ant-killer powder and wasp sprays, then my jaws dropped as I saw the sticky mouse traps, these are far too cruel, as the mice dies a slow lingering painful death, unable to move at all, and unable to relax his legs and he dies practically stuck over several days, thirsty and hungry, these should be banned clearly. Something RSPCA should look into. (I didn't say don't kill mice, but definitely not a slow painfully death.

Either kill a mouse outright or don't bother and outlaw these sticky traps.

So yes I would refuse to sell these if I were a cashier!

 

[jockscott]

My point was just that if M&S can allow some negotiation on job descriptions to the benefit of its staff without it causing anyone a problem, that's not a bad thing, they just need to make sure they succeed.

What job description do you need for a checkout operator though?
1 Must be customer focused.... Obviously the M&S employee who refused to sell alcohol or pork, isn't customer focused. (remember the customer is always right)

2 Must have the ability to scan all items into the till... The M&S employee, couldn't scan alcohol or pork into the till, and so, has failed in his/her basic duty. (gross misconduct, therefore the sack)

3 Employees must put the customer first.. As a representative of M&S, this employee has failed miserably..


Why the need for job descriptions to be negotiated after the employee has been hired? Terms and conditions (as set out at the time of the job offer) should not be open to further negotiation by individual employees. (wonder what my employer would do if I told them I didn't want to do, this, that and t'other ???)

The M&S employee should probably have been sacked, for refusing to fulfill his/her , contractual duties (eg serving customers, no matter what they want to legally buy) If I was the chief executive of M&S, I'd get HR staff to look very, very carefully at prospective employees religious beliefs. I'd make them sign contracts that stated "I will not refuse to serve customers of this business, on religious grounds." Surely, if there's any problems with this , it's easy for M&S to refuse to employ that person on the basis that they will be unable to fulfil their contractual duties (or just tell them the position has been filled)

 

[JBR]

My point was just that if M&S can allow some negotiation on job descriptions to the benefit of its staff without it causing anyone a problem, that's not a bad thing, they just need to make sure they succeed.

What job description do you need for a checkout operator though?
1 Must be customer focused.... Obviously the M&S employee who refused to sell alcohol or pork, isn't customer focused. (remember the customer is always right)

2 Must have the ability to scan all items into the till... The M&S employee, couldn't scan alcohol or pork into the till, and so, has failed in his/her basic duty. (gross misconduct, therefore the sack)

3 Employees must put the customer first.. As a representative of M&S, this employee has failed miserably..


Why the need for job descriptions to be negotiated after the employee has been hired? Terms and conditions (as set out at the time of the job offer) should not be open to further negotiation by individual employees. (wonder what my employer would do if I told them I didn't want to do, this, that and t'other ???)

The M&S employee should probably have been sacked, for refusing to fulfill his/her , contractual duties (eg serving customers, no matter what they want to legally buy) If I was the chief executive of M&S, I'd get HR staff to look very, very carefully at prospective employees religious beliefs. I'd make them sign contracts that stated "I will not refuse to serve customers of this business, on religious grounds." Surely, if there's any problems with this , it's easy for M&S to refuse to employ that person on the basis that they will be unable to fulfil their contractual duties (or just tell them the position has been filled)

I agree with all of this, but if there was any hint of not hiring someone on religious grounds there'd be the devil to pay. I also suspect that if any insistence was made on a potential employee to agree to work contrary to any of their religious beliefs, an employer would also be treading on dangerous ground.

Such are things in present day Britain, I'm afraid!

 

[EFLImpudence]

if there was any hint of not hiring someone on religious grounds there'd be the devil to pay.

There would - if it were irrelevant to the job.

However, not being able/willing to do the job because of those beliefs surely rules out the applicant.

I also suspect that if any insistence was made on a potential employee to agree to work contrary to any of their religious beliefs, an employer would also be treading on dangerous ground.

Quite, but it is not the employer insisting.

To the extreme - should someone with this check-out assistant's views apply for a job as a pig slaughter'person' and then, while being paid, be excused all duties?
It would probably be better to not apply for jobs part of which you do not want to do.