Migrant channel crossing deal.

[MNW67]

You've stated this is common ground - it isn't. I've provided examples e.g. Illegal Migration Act 2023, tripped up at every step.

As the HRA currently stands the above is vastly harder and requires more care. If its not to be rewritten by the Judiciary, it will have to explicitly have a disapplication of the Human Rights Act 1998 section, e.g. Sec 3 Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Act 2024. It also creates more of an open goal for anyone bringing a claim.

Greece is a signatory of the ECHR, they take cases on a case by case basis. Some succeed some fail. The burden is on the claimant. Not so in the UK with the HRA creating an open goal.
I've provided cases of push back in Greece where the claimant was unable to prove their case and lost.

I am trying to give you a simple framework for analysing a problem like a lawyer. But either because you are not capable, or you don't have the confidence, you keep falling back on vague and generic conflations. Every time I break down the problem, like a court would do in a judgment, you want to scramble it all together again. I don't actually think you want a proper forensic discussion.

 

[motorbiking]

I am trying to give you a simple framework for analysing a problem like a lawyer. But either because you are not capable, or you don't have the confidence, you keep falling back on vague and generic conflations. Every time I break down the problem, like a court would do in a judgment, you want to scramble it all together again. I don't actually think you want a proper forensic discussion.

The first rule is not to claim common ground that isn't common ground.

 

[MNW67]

The first rule is not to claim common ground that isn't common ground.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not wanting to disprove your theory. I am actually interested in your idea and I am just wanting you to explain it properly.

Going back to my scenario.

The Act is on the statute books. Some sort of Border Force is tasked with putting the push back policy into practice. But some of the officers aren't happy because they think it may be against the ECHR. So, their union wants to bring a challenge. How would that be done with the HRA as it is and with the HRA amended as you propose.

 

[motorbiking]

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not wanting to disprove your theory. I am actually interested in your idea and I am just wanting you to explain it properly.

Going back to my scenario.

The Act is on the statute books. Some sort of Border Force is tasked with putting the push back policy into practice. But some of the officers aren't happy because they think it may be against the ECHR. So, their union wants to bring a challenge. How would that be done with the HRA as it is and with the HRA amended as you propose.

Does your proposed act disapply the HRA ? Similar to the Rwanda act?

Does it grant the necessary powers and obligations?

Have all judicial processes been exhausted?

If yes you are good to go.

Though you are vulnerable to a claim because you’ve explicitly disapplied the HRA. The ECHR will conclude you did the because you know you aren’t complying. Had you amended the HRA your exposure is less because you both take your chances.

Those who are campaigning to reform the HRA are arguing it’s about restoring balance. At the moment the Judiciary are forced/enabled/encouraged to overstep because of the HRA.

 

[MNW67]

Does your proposed act disapply the HRA ? Similar to the Rwanda act?

I think that would be pointless from the point of view of this hypothetical. The whole purpose is to look at what would happen if the HRA had been amended and no longer applied. And compare that with what would happen if it was still in place and was fully applicable.

Does it grant the necessary powers and obligations?

I have to admit I don't know what those are. But I assume that the government lawyers know their stuff and will have added whatever boilerplate is necessary.

Have all judicial processes been exhausted?

What do you mean by this. Which judicial processes are you thinking of.

 

[motorbiking]

I think that would be pointless from the point of view of this hypothetical. The whole purpose is to look at what would happen if the HRA had been amended and no longer applied. And compare that with what would happen if it was still in place and was fully applicable.

Without this there would likely be case law interpreting it to a very narrow scope that complies. e.g. you can only push back when the sun is shining and wind is blowing in the same direction as the tide.

I have to admit I don't know what those are. But I assume that the government lawyers know their stuff and will have added whatever boilerplate is necessary.

You have to create an obligation, power to act etc. This protects those carrying out the job. Similar to Plod. If that has been done properly then you either face down your unions and take disciplinary acton against those refusing their duties or you outsource it. But given nobody dissapplied the relevant sections of the HRA, I'd expect you'd be on a weak footing as an employer.

What do you mean by this. Which judicial processes are you thinking of.

domestic.

 

[MNW67]

Without this there would likely be case law interpreting it to a very narrow scope that complies. e.g. you can only push back when the sun is shining and wind is blowing in the same direction as the tide.

You have to create an obligation, power to act etc. This protects those carrying out the job. Similar to Plod. If that has been done properly then you either face down your unions and take disciplinary acton against those refusing their duties or you outsource it. But given nobody dissapplied the relevant sections of the HRA, I'd expect you'd be on a weak footing as an employer.

You seem to be wanting to drown me with arcane detail rather than actually discuss the main issue i.e. how any claims would process through the courts in both situations.

domestic.

And now you go to the other extreme. Give examples of what you mean.

 

[MNW67]

In fact, ignore that last sentence. I have gone from being intrigued to being frustrated to being bored. I really am out this time.

 

[motorbiking]

In fact, ignore that last sentence. I have gone from being intrigued to being frustrated to being bored. I really am out this time.

Good job. Nobody was interested to start with. Including me.

 

[noseall]

In fact, ignore that last sentence. I have gone from being intrigued to being frustrated to being bored. I really am out this time.

You are getting to know one of the most cowardly disingenuous lying posters on the forum.

Don't bother. He will just deflect, waffle and lie.

 

[motorbiking]

You are getting to know one of the most cowardly disingenuous lying posters on the forum.

Don't bother. He will just deflect, waffle and lie.

How do you get away with your abuse.

 

[Deleted member 317777]

How do you get away with your abuse.

I think he’s horn smoked a m0d

Unless anyone knows better ?

 

[Highway Man]

How do you get away with your abuse.

Another question is why does he want to be so abusive, something seriously lacking with him.

 

[mitch66]

Another question is why does he want to be so abusive, something seriously lacking with him.

Maybe a difficult childhood? Best to be charitable to him or politely ignore.

 

[Deleted member 317777]

Maybe a difficult childhood? Best to be charitable to him or politely ignore.

Probably a middle child with very successful siblings