MTC Card
- Thread starter DHFrames
- Start date
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Well I nailed my theory tests the other day.
I was only supposed to be doing the fitting test but seeing as I did it in 15 mins they let me do the surveyors one as well (also took about 15 mins).
I was in a room with about 20 other people, Mostly business owners and 2 or 3 fitters by the looks of it. Alot of them sat there looking a bit puzzled, I did both tests, Got my results, Had a chat with the examiners and was in my car on the way back before anyone else had even finished the first test.
I have heard a rumor or 2 that upto 90% of the fitters from the large national company's are failing and I can see why.
Although a lot of the questions are health and safety related there are quite a few that old school fitters just wouldn't know without keeping upto date on all the regs on surveying.
I was only supposed to be doing the fitting test but seeing as I did it in 15 mins they let me do the surveyors one as well (also took about 15 mins).
I was in a room with about 20 other people, Mostly business owners and 2 or 3 fitters by the looks of it. Alot of them sat there looking a bit puzzled, I did both tests, Got my results, Had a chat with the examiners and was in my car on the way back before anyone else had even finished the first test.
I have heard a rumor or 2 that upto 90% of the fitters from the large national company's are failing and I can see why.
Although a lot of the questions are health and safety related there are quite a few that old school fitters just wouldn't know without keeping upto date on all the regs on surveying.
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No word they just said the BBA would contact me.
To be honest I will try to put them off as long as possible as we wont need to have the card until next June and it will need to be renewed every 3 or 5 years (cant remember which) So I want it to last as long as possible
To be honest I will try to put them off as long as possible as we wont need to have the card until next June and it will need to be renewed every 3 or 5 years (cant remember which) So I want it to last as long as possible
I don't think that's fair, I do a reasonable job, but not enough to justify fensa registration.
I use cavity closers, fire socks in the cavities under the closers, where cavity exists and possible, I don't fit frames tight into opening so there's no chances of cold bridging or brick walls absorbing heat from frames aim for 5mm usually all the way around.
Foam fill the gap All the way around the frame of windows and doors! Even if there's only a 3mm gap to stop drafts and absorb sound rather than allowing it to transmit through the gaps.
Then either side in and out use sealant under a plastic trim, so outside the foam is protected and inside to seal window from any drafts which may have penetrated so effectively triple barrier sealed from the elements and sound and thermally isolated from cold bridging which may absorb heat from the frames.
I spend usually about 5 hours per window by the time I've stripped out one out, foam injected, trimmed it back neatly and added sealant and trim etc.
I also only use A rated windows with planitherm total plus and Swiss bar v spacers.
And when I measure I always measure from outside and don't use existing window for measurements, if there are tiles or cladding at the top of the window I try to poke something behind to feel for the lintel... As I've come accross a few where people have previously measured, not accounted for overlap at top and there's a nice hidden gap above the window or door of about an inch!
So I genuinely try to do the best job I can, do it to current regulations and generally a proper job.. I don't class myself as a cowboy.
That's why I feel it's unfair for you to comment that people like myself should be banned from doing the work. When I might only do 6 in a year and another year may not do any then i can't justify fensa.
No disrespect to those who do fit properly in the trade, but I probably spend more time and attention per window getting it perfect than 75% of the trade and the quality of the finish shows.
And yet you are saying I should be banned from doing a good job? Because I don't fit enough to justify fensa?
I know what your saying but for every click4 there's 2 fly by night bodgers, it's gone on for too long now in this trade where someone with no experience and no qualifications can come and rip out your windows and totally #*@# up an install
Not against improved standards and control, I agree there are bodgers... Some of the biggest ones seem to be companies with teams of installers rather than sole traders. Recently had a look at some glazing for somebody who know. They only had it fitted about 18 months ago and said they have always had trouble shutting front door.
Had a look, and you could see daylight through bottom corner when shut.
Door needed raising up in its frame, it wasn't centred vertically, and adjustments were way out.
Found their patio door in a similar state, the vertical jam where all the locks engage wasn't even vertical and door was too low. Both now lock perfectly.
Even said to somebody other week, anybody can screw a window in a hole, but not everyone knows how to do it properly and in a thermally efficient manner.
So plenty of cowboys yes. And they need stamping out, even here.
Next door neighbour, they had their windows fitted last year, house has tiles on front of house, window installer framed the window with utility board to frame window inside the surrounding tiles. But instead of fixing it to frame first, offering frame into opening complete he fitted it first, then tried fixing the plastic framing trim afterwards.... Result was theres gaps where it meets in the corners where they aren't cut to correct length, and the 6mm plastic is all wavy and sagging.
It is possible to trim the window before fitting as I did it with ours, funny thing was, afterwards the neighbour kept having a good look every day for days... Presumebly because it turned out better than theirs and they didn't like it as they always want to have the best.
Another neighbour down the road, their upstairs window openings practically foul on the tiles because of the tile overlapping lintel.
With ours I had to have window made undersize then add an extension piece to the top to created correctly sized window which didnt foul on tiles.
But as above not against tighter regulations, I don't mind regulations, don't even mind tighter control to ensure regulation is adhered to.
But don't agree on a complete ban on non fensa installers, because people like me generally do a good job and arent a cowboy and it will kill what little work I get from windows and doors.
Had same with electrics, I have all the test equipment, I own copies of the latest regulation books, I've worked with electricians who can't fault my work and are happy with it; had council inspections to get bigger jobs signed off
and nobody has every faulted it.
But because of part P I can rewire a house get it signed off by electricians who have nothing but praise for my work through building control. Provide my own test results with an up to date calibrated test meter... But I can't install a couple of sockets because building control fees make it cost prohibitive.
Luckily with the windows and doors its a bit more reasonable but I rely on building control to allow me to do these jobs. If that access gets stopped then it can be make or break for a small business like mine and to be fair people like myself don't deserve to be driven out of business by a bunch of cowboys.
What needs to happen is for building control to simply tighten their belt, not stop that route... Just make the inspections more thorough.
Whenever I use them here, the guy just goes around, puts a device on the glass, it bleeps then after a few says yep all good and issues completion certificate... That is the problem, personally I want them to open windows and check its a fire hinge if required, feel for drafts, look at how secure it is, and General installation. Ask questions about its installation.
If they did then things would improve.
After all that's what happens with new builds...house is considered inhabitable unless it passes inspection, and those inspections can be quite thorough... Only one I've seen they even commented on gaps in the join on door architrave, and paint on door hinges.
Click4, LABC charge £150 to come out, and like you said all they do is put the meter on the glass, ours check for fire escapes, safety glass and trickle vents but still they're there 5 mins and gone. For them to do more sufficient checks would involve more time on site, more paperwork back in the office which in turn would up the fees involved.
You obviously take pride in any work you do but in this day and age with all the health and safety criteria within any trade, unless you're qualified to do the job I personally don't think you should be doing it.
If I was an qualified electrician who paid a fortune in course fees to get that qualification over a certain amount of years, I wouldn't be too happy seeing you unqualified doing my job!
I feel the same towards window fitting, why should I put in the time, costs etc when others aren't but still able to do the job.
The cowboys and rip off merchants wont stop until the certifying through LABC loophole ends, like Crank said for every good one there's two bad uns.
You obviously take pride in any work you do but in this day and age with all the health and safety criteria within any trade, unless you're qualified to do the job I personally don't think you should be doing it.
If I was an qualified electrician who paid a fortune in course fees to get that qualification over a certain amount of years, I wouldn't be too happy seeing you unqualified doing my job!
I feel the same towards window fitting, why should I put in the time, costs etc when others aren't but still able to do the job.
The cowboys and rip off merchants wont stop until the certifying through LABC loophole ends, like Crank said for every good one there's two bad uns.
I know what you are saying about spending money and time on training and qualifications.
Should be noted though that there is also lots of qualified people around in all trades that still act like Cowboys not because they don't know how or aren't capable but purely because they lack pride in their work usually latter.
So qualifications and ban labc it still wouldn't eradicate cowboys I've seen plenty of qualified electricians and gas people who don't do stuff to regulations. Qualifications don't guarantee a decent well done job unless the person has pride in their work to go with it.
Gas is actually a common one where they regularly break regulations just to suit themselves because it either pumps up the cost or they can't be bothered.
Like boilers in lofts, from what I'm told, could be wrong but current regulations state that a boiler in a loft should have a boarded arear around it with some form of railings to ensure it is a safe working area for maintenance and operating by the homeowner..: but I can't recall seeing a boiler in a loft ever so far installed by a qualified gas safe engineer with railings around it of some description.
Gas Pipes through walls, these are supposed to be inside another pipe, yes gas engineers do this... It also says that the interior side should be sealed so in the event of a leak the gas vents outside and not inside... Again not something I regularly see... Usually I just see a pipe through a wall with no sealing on interior side.
So while qualifications help, they aren't always a guarantee standards are adhered to.
Most of the health and safety is based on common sense and good practice...like how to work safely at height. Wearing protective clothing and hard hats, not lifting over a certain weight, another area which often gets ignored... Amount of times I've seen windows fitted by people on ladders. Anything higher than a single storey health and safety dictates scaffold of some kind should be erected or a tower or platform used.
People I buy my windows from have 1 van used for deliveries and their fitters... Saw in the back the other day and there was no sign of a tower so I don't know how they fit windows on a 2nd storey without breaching health and safety:
I know there's the argument as you said that you spend a lot of money on qualifications and training and equipment and Cowboys are doing you out of business or ruining your reputation. Which is valid, in my case though, it should be noted I don't advertise window fitting, it's not my primary focus.
I carry out home / building maintenance... I have regular customers, they trust me, I do all my work to a high standard and regulation, never attempt anything without getting up to date and knowing what's what and if a customer wants a window fitted I fit it and get it signed off by BcO and same with any other work, some of them don't even trust anybody else to do the work because they don't know who they are getting through the door, a cowboy or a genuine tradesman.... So I'm mainly Just looking after my customers who trust me to d a proper job, lots of them are friends of friends and relatives or word of mouth...not out to do other businesses out of business and if I started advertising window fitting tomorrow then I agree that would be unfair business practice. Because as you say people spend a lot of time and money on training, registration with bodies, qualifications and equipment and while some competition is healthy in the world, it's not fair to really to carry out a full time trade without qualifications and ruin somebody else's business in the process who has more of a right to do it
But like I said I don't advertise these things and I'm just doing it every now and again when a customer asks me. Some years I don't fit any windows at all.
But I do believe in having pride in work, and if a jobs worth doing its worth doing properly, can be a bit ocd when it comes to perfection and very critical of my work and don't mind admitting if it's not right, if I can correct it then I will... If I can't then as long as it isn't causing a problem and looks respectable I have no choice but to leave it like on last window I had to attach some utility board to upper edge... Glued it, it moved slightly and had about 1.5mm deviation over a 10cm section... Not even visible from street level but will always be unhappy with the job, but short of breaking it off and damaging or making things worse nothing I can do. Sometimes it's really silly things, like 1 length on last window of quadrant should of been enough, but end part had a slight scratch... So I cut a bit from a new length which wasn't scratched.
That's why hopefully I can safely say I'm not a cowboy, and I hope there will always be a route for me to carry on legally doing good quality work so I can look after my customers. Don't care if it's strict and highly regulated and if they spend 2 hours inspecting things and questioning me... I welcome that as long as it stamps out Cowboys, and allows people who do a good job to carry on doing just that because it's really not entirely fair that somebody is stopped from doing good work, by the very system which is supposed to supply good work.
Should be noted though that there is also lots of qualified people around in all trades that still act like Cowboys not because they don't know how or aren't capable but purely because they lack pride in their work usually latter.
So qualifications and ban labc it still wouldn't eradicate cowboys I've seen plenty of qualified electricians and gas people who don't do stuff to regulations. Qualifications don't guarantee a decent well done job unless the person has pride in their work to go with it.
Gas is actually a common one where they regularly break regulations just to suit themselves because it either pumps up the cost or they can't be bothered.
Like boilers in lofts, from what I'm told, could be wrong but current regulations state that a boiler in a loft should have a boarded arear around it with some form of railings to ensure it is a safe working area for maintenance and operating by the homeowner..: but I can't recall seeing a boiler in a loft ever so far installed by a qualified gas safe engineer with railings around it of some description.
Gas Pipes through walls, these are supposed to be inside another pipe, yes gas engineers do this... It also says that the interior side should be sealed so in the event of a leak the gas vents outside and not inside... Again not something I regularly see... Usually I just see a pipe through a wall with no sealing on interior side.
So while qualifications help, they aren't always a guarantee standards are adhered to.
Most of the health and safety is based on common sense and good practice...like how to work safely at height. Wearing protective clothing and hard hats, not lifting over a certain weight, another area which often gets ignored... Amount of times I've seen windows fitted by people on ladders. Anything higher than a single storey health and safety dictates scaffold of some kind should be erected or a tower or platform used.
People I buy my windows from have 1 van used for deliveries and their fitters... Saw in the back the other day and there was no sign of a tower so I don't know how they fit windows on a 2nd storey without breaching health and safety:
I know there's the argument as you said that you spend a lot of money on qualifications and training and equipment and Cowboys are doing you out of business or ruining your reputation. Which is valid, in my case though, it should be noted I don't advertise window fitting, it's not my primary focus.
I carry out home / building maintenance... I have regular customers, they trust me, I do all my work to a high standard and regulation, never attempt anything without getting up to date and knowing what's what and if a customer wants a window fitted I fit it and get it signed off by BcO and same with any other work, some of them don't even trust anybody else to do the work because they don't know who they are getting through the door, a cowboy or a genuine tradesman.... So I'm mainly Just looking after my customers who trust me to d a proper job, lots of them are friends of friends and relatives or word of mouth...not out to do other businesses out of business and if I started advertising window fitting tomorrow then I agree that would be unfair business practice. Because as you say people spend a lot of time and money on training, registration with bodies, qualifications and equipment and while some competition is healthy in the world, it's not fair to really to carry out a full time trade without qualifications and ruin somebody else's business in the process who has more of a right to do it
But like I said I don't advertise these things and I'm just doing it every now and again when a customer asks me. Some years I don't fit any windows at all.
But I do believe in having pride in work, and if a jobs worth doing its worth doing properly, can be a bit ocd when it comes to perfection and very critical of my work and don't mind admitting if it's not right, if I can correct it then I will... If I can't then as long as it isn't causing a problem and looks respectable I have no choice but to leave it like on last window I had to attach some utility board to upper edge... Glued it, it moved slightly and had about 1.5mm deviation over a 10cm section... Not even visible from street level but will always be unhappy with the job, but short of breaking it off and damaging or making things worse nothing I can do. Sometimes it's really silly things, like 1 length on last window of quadrant should of been enough, but end part had a slight scratch... So I cut a bit from a new length which wasn't scratched.
That's why hopefully I can safely say I'm not a cowboy, and I hope there will always be a route for me to carry on legally doing good quality work so I can look after my customers. Don't care if it's strict and highly regulated and if they spend 2 hours inspecting things and questioning me... I welcome that as long as it stamps out Cowboys, and allows people who do a good job to carry on doing just that because it's really not entirely fair that somebody is stopped from doing good work, by the very system which is supposed to supply good work.
Sounds like you do a good job but I have to agree with DHFrames here.
There are far too many people fitting windows and doors that just dont have a clue.
Most builders don't even know to seal the cills causing leaks into the cavity and wet plaster reveals.
If your only fitting about 6 windows a year its not going to make a much difference to you, You could always buy your windows from a window company and ask them to come check and Fensa them.
There are far too many people fitting windows and doors that just dont have a clue.
Most builders don't even know to seal the cills causing leaks into the cavity and wet plaster reveals.
If your only fitting about 6 windows a year its not going to make a much difference to you, You could always buy your windows from a window company and ask them to come check and Fensa them.
Hi Everyone, Been a visitor to this forum for a while. Thought it was time I joined.
My experience concerning the MTC card.
When I was first made aware of this I must admit I was none to keen on the idea (more money for nothing) but slowly began to realise that it may be a good thing after all. So I decided that it was best to get it done as soon as possible. We run a small business and have worked together for many years. We are also registered with Certass.
I was under the impression that the knowledge test had to be done first but upon contacting the on site examiner I was told that I could do the practical test first. So I did.
The examiner who turned up was actually a building inspector who after a few minutes freely admitted that I knew more about fitting a window than he did. He wasn't there to pass of fail me on fitting a window exactly, more to make sure on building regs. and especially health and safety. Safety boots, goggles, gloves and wrist protectors were used to the optium.
Photos were taken of just about everything including inside and outside of my van. All in all it went pretty well. One question I asked him was ' what's to stop a homeowner getting a window from Wickes, B&Q etc. & fitting it themselves?' his answer was ' nothing, but they won't have the relevant paperwork when they come to sell their house.'
I was told that I could now do the knowledge test as soon as I had the relevant email from Certass. As Certass have realised how pointless it is making people sit in a classroom (Gazman16 you had to, are you with Fensa?) this is now done online. Despite numerous emails & phone calls it took over 6 weeks for this email to arrive. One test, which covered me for both surveying & fitting consisting of 40 multiple choice questions in 40 minutes have to be answered, many straightforward but a few were a bit pointless really. It took me just under 20mins. Upon completion your results are displayed immediately & I managed to get 35 correct which was well above the pass rate. A rather crappy looking certificate appears which you print out yourself. Upon contacting Certass asking when I would be receiving my MTC card I was told that now I had passed the knowledge test I would have to have an on site test. 'I've already done that I said', giving them all the relevant details. 'We have no details of that. You may have to do another one if we don't get the details soon' they said. To say I was livid was the understatement of the year. I did however manage to get in touch with the examiner who had been away on holiday. He apologised for not updating my details sooner but he'd had a few problems changing from the written system to the new online way of doing things. I should be receiving my card soon.
Hope this info may be of use to some of you.
Sorry if this post is a bit long. I will try to keep things rather shorter in any future posts.
My experience concerning the MTC card.
When I was first made aware of this I must admit I was none to keen on the idea (more money for nothing) but slowly began to realise that it may be a good thing after all. So I decided that it was best to get it done as soon as possible. We run a small business and have worked together for many years. We are also registered with Certass.
I was under the impression that the knowledge test had to be done first but upon contacting the on site examiner I was told that I could do the practical test first. So I did.
The examiner who turned up was actually a building inspector who after a few minutes freely admitted that I knew more about fitting a window than he did. He wasn't there to pass of fail me on fitting a window exactly, more to make sure on building regs. and especially health and safety. Safety boots, goggles, gloves and wrist protectors were used to the optium.
Photos were taken of just about everything including inside and outside of my van. All in all it went pretty well. One question I asked him was ' what's to stop a homeowner getting a window from Wickes, B&Q etc. & fitting it themselves?' his answer was ' nothing, but they won't have the relevant paperwork when they come to sell their house.'
I was told that I could now do the knowledge test as soon as I had the relevant email from Certass. As Certass have realised how pointless it is making people sit in a classroom (Gazman16 you had to, are you with Fensa?) this is now done online. Despite numerous emails & phone calls it took over 6 weeks for this email to arrive. One test, which covered me for both surveying & fitting consisting of 40 multiple choice questions in 40 minutes have to be answered, many straightforward but a few were a bit pointless really. It took me just under 20mins. Upon completion your results are displayed immediately & I managed to get 35 correct which was well above the pass rate. A rather crappy looking certificate appears which you print out yourself. Upon contacting Certass asking when I would be receiving my MTC card I was told that now I had passed the knowledge test I would have to have an on site test. 'I've already done that I said', giving them all the relevant details. 'We have no details of that. You may have to do another one if we don't get the details soon' they said. To say I was livid was the understatement of the year. I did however manage to get in touch with the examiner who had been away on holiday. He apologised for not updating my details sooner but he'd had a few problems changing from the written system to the new online way of doing things. I should be receiving my card soon.
Hope this info may be of use to some of you.
Sorry if this post is a bit long. I will try to keep things rather shorter in any future posts.
Yes mine was with Fensa and I had to travel to them to do 2 separate 40 question tests (fitting and surveying).
When I first heard about it I was told the tests were online which I thought was a bit dumb as anyone could just google the answers so I was kind of glad when they said Id have to go to them but its pointless if Certass and others are allowing it to be done online.
When I first heard about it I was told the tests were online which I thought was a bit dumb as anyone could just google the answers so I was kind of glad when they said Id have to go to them but its pointless if Certass and others are allowing it to be done online.
The practical test is online too
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