The party wall act does cover this. It also includes boundary walls of which this is one.
I deal with the use of this act regulary. It is used more often for this than it is for the party wall.
Neighbour proposing to site boiler flue within my boundary
- Thread starter KTL
- Start date
The party wall act does cover this. It also includes boundary walls of which this is one.
I deal with the use of this act regulary. It is used more often for this than it is for the party wall.
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The outside wall of her house DOES apparently seperate her property from yours ( your patio ). Therefore some provisions of the Party Wall Act DO apply!
Particularly, even if you have no control over "works" to her wall, the ACT does allow her access over your land to do those works on her wall. BUT she still needs to give you a minimum of 14 days notice ( quoting that its under the Party Wall Act ).
Regardless, the neighbour ( who sounds a real cow ) has no right to discharge products of combustion over your patio.
In protection of your rights, generally, the law entitles you to take reasonable force to eject anyone from your property who has no right to be there ( trespassing ). Similarily to prevent anyone installing anything which trespasses on or over your property such as a flue projecting over your property.
I dont see that you have any right to interfere with the INSTALLATION of something that does not involve trespass. In that case the trespass will only occur when it starts to discharge over your property at which point you can complain to the local EHO or seek a court injunction.
Tony
Neighbour has now been informed by Prop Management of the potential breach of building regulations and enforcement if no mutual agreement is arrived at about repositioning the flue the correct distance away from my boundary
I just hope she now sees sense.
I just hope she now sees sense.
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Generally a condensing boiler flue must discharge at least 2.5m away from your property boundary.
If its within that distance the EHO and the Building Regulations Inspector will consider that it may constitute a Statutory Nuisence!
Also under the Gas Regulations all flues have to be positioned so that they do not constitute a danger to anyone.
Tony
If its within that distance the EHO and the Building Regulations Inspector will consider that it may constitute a Statutory Nuisence!
Also under the Gas Regulations all flues have to be positioned so that they do not constitute a danger to anyone.
Tony
Hi
Going on recent posts, so it IS subject to some kind of Party Wall arrangement after all? In which case, id be grateful if anyone can tell what are neighbour's obligations to me with regards using it to site a flue?
Going on recent posts, so it IS subject to some kind of Party Wall arrangement after all? In which case, id be grateful if anyone can tell what are neighbour's obligations to me with regards using it to site a flue?
Latest missive from neighbour to Prop Manager in response to him advising her of enforcement of building regs if she proceeds to site flue where she wants to :
"Dear xxx your comment is unhelpful and erroneous as Building Regs do not apply in this situation.
This is copied from the government website...
"Building regulations make sure that the design and construction of a building is safe and energy efficient...."
Not now sure what she's even on about???! Anyone else?
"Dear xxx your comment is unhelpful and erroneous as Building Regs do not apply in this situation.
This is copied from the government website...
"Building regulations make sure that the design and construction of a building is safe and energy efficient...."
Not now sure what she's even on about???! Anyone else?
Update on the problem re flue.
As neighbour had declined to attend a mediation meeting as was too busy on Sat (in hindsight I now know why!) and Prop Manager being a bit flaky about it all, I decided it would be best to take advice on board and write a letter to my neighbour outlining all the reasons why she should not be proposing to site boiler on my land, especially as she said she couldn/t commit to a mediation meeting today to discuss it.
As I don't have Microsoft Office on my home laptop, resorted to email instead, which took me ages as I wanted it to be thorough and clear. So having stayed up half the night writing it, planning on sending it during Saturday I went to bed v tired but glad I completed it.
I am then awoken this morning by the sound of a van door closing loudly out the front of my flat and on looking out see that there are 2 yellow contractor vans parked up in the resi carpark.
Realising this is the same yellow van as the contractor my neighbour had around the other night, I quickly realised the reason why she could not attend mediation, as she was clearly just going to go ahead anyway and had no intention on discussing it in mediation! Highly malicious and sneaky..
Anyway, I immediately go out of my back door and pointedly close my patio gate and then went into communal hallway of house to ask the plumber who was there if he was Gas Safe registered and if so, why was he considering placing a flue within a boundary contrary to Building Regs App Doc J and Gas Safety Regs. I am not sure what neighbour had told him re my patio and even whether it belonged to me... he ummmed and errred. mumbled something about plume management kit but was clearly a bit shocked!
At that point neighbour came out railing on about how the work wasn't subject to regs, I shouldn't be talking to her plumber, my planning permission hasn't been granted yet, yak yak yak. I concentrated on continuing to inform contractors that if they carried out this work I would get Gas Safe and building control around to inspect it, as well as HSE
Contractors then came around to the garden and I clearly pointed out where my boundary ended and that the flue couldn't possibly go within my boundary on the boundary wall. I also showed them & my neighbour my Land Reg title plan showing red outline of my land... I told neighbour I had prepared an email and would immediately email it to her. suggested she read it, to get full understanding of legal reasons why she can't have flue sited where she wanted it, irrespective of whether I get plan permission approval or not, and went indoors.
10 mins later, sheepish tap on my front door... neighbour telling me that, er yes it will be moved! said she didn't know I had a Land Reg doc outlining my boundary (what?? even though she clearly has one and needed to consult with it when she had her conservatory built a few years ago....!) But clearly she finally got it!!! Or rather the contractor got the fact that I was genned up enough to ensure he didn't do a dodgy cowboy job and refused to place it where she wanted it. But anyway, bottom line is it's all resolved, phew and hurrah!
Flue is now as I type, being placed further down the end of her wall on the other side of her window. Not sure she particularly liked the taste of the considerable slab of humble pie she had to eat, but hey, maybe she'll learn something by it. Sadly hasn't helped amicable relationship with neighbour, but wasn't going to be ridden roughshod over, and I plan to move within 6 months anyway.
I'll paste up my email I sent to neighbour in the next post, as it might be good for anyone else to use if they ever have the same problem.
Thanks for all advice on here, it proved really helpful and contributed to bringing about a good outcome!
As neighbour had declined to attend a mediation meeting as was too busy on Sat (in hindsight I now know why!) and Prop Manager being a bit flaky about it all, I decided it would be best to take advice on board and write a letter to my neighbour outlining all the reasons why she should not be proposing to site boiler on my land, especially as she said she couldn/t commit to a mediation meeting today to discuss it.
As I don't have Microsoft Office on my home laptop, resorted to email instead, which took me ages as I wanted it to be thorough and clear. So having stayed up half the night writing it, planning on sending it during Saturday I went to bed v tired but glad I completed it.
I am then awoken this morning by the sound of a van door closing loudly out the front of my flat and on looking out see that there are 2 yellow contractor vans parked up in the resi carpark.
Realising this is the same yellow van as the contractor my neighbour had around the other night, I quickly realised the reason why she could not attend mediation, as she was clearly just going to go ahead anyway and had no intention on discussing it in mediation! Highly malicious and sneaky..
Anyway, I immediately go out of my back door and pointedly close my patio gate and then went into communal hallway of house to ask the plumber who was there if he was Gas Safe registered and if so, why was he considering placing a flue within a boundary contrary to Building Regs App Doc J and Gas Safety Regs. I am not sure what neighbour had told him re my patio and even whether it belonged to me... he ummmed and errred. mumbled something about plume management kit but was clearly a bit shocked!
At that point neighbour came out railing on about how the work wasn't subject to regs, I shouldn't be talking to her plumber, my planning permission hasn't been granted yet, yak yak yak. I concentrated on continuing to inform contractors that if they carried out this work I would get Gas Safe and building control around to inspect it, as well as HSE
Contractors then came around to the garden and I clearly pointed out where my boundary ended and that the flue couldn't possibly go within my boundary on the boundary wall. I also showed them & my neighbour my Land Reg title plan showing red outline of my land... I told neighbour I had prepared an email and would immediately email it to her. suggested she read it, to get full understanding of legal reasons why she can't have flue sited where she wanted it, irrespective of whether I get plan permission approval or not, and went indoors.
10 mins later, sheepish tap on my front door... neighbour telling me that, er yes it will be moved! said she didn't know I had a Land Reg doc outlining my boundary (what?? even though she clearly has one and needed to consult with it when she had her conservatory built a few years ago....!) But clearly she finally got it!!! Or rather the contractor got the fact that I was genned up enough to ensure he didn't do a dodgy cowboy job and refused to place it where she wanted it. But anyway, bottom line is it's all resolved, phew and hurrah!
Flue is now as I type, being placed further down the end of her wall on the other side of her window. Not sure she particularly liked the taste of the considerable slab of humble pie she had to eat, but hey, maybe she'll learn something by it. Sadly hasn't helped amicable relationship with neighbour, but wasn't going to be ridden roughshod over, and I plan to move within 6 months anyway.
I'll paste up my email I sent to neighbour in the next post, as it might be good for anyone else to use if they ever have the same problem.
Thanks for all advice on here, it proved really helpful and contributed to bringing about a good outcome!
Copy of email sent to neighbour :
Dear xxx
It is a shame you are unable to attend the mediation meeting which I suggested to xxx would be a good idea to arrange, since I felt this would be the most amicable way to sit down and discuss the situation and look at alternative solutions to your problems with installing your boiler and flue.
In the absence of a meeting, I feel it important to make you aware of the building regs that do apply to your proposed work, including the siting of the flue. I therefore thought it a good idea, in good time, to appraise you of these regulations and risks associated with your current proposed siting of a boiler flue on a boundary wall within my patio boundary.
1, Building Regulations, Explanatory Booklet, http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/odpm/4000000011249.pdf
Page 12/13, 3.2 :
"If whatever work your project involves amounts to ‘Building Work’ then it must comply with the Building Regulations. This means that if you want to:
- put up a new building, or extend or alter an existing one (e.g. by converting a loft space into living space);
- or provide services and/or fittings in a building such as:
– washing and sanitary facilities (e.g. WCs, showers,washbasins, kitchen sinks, etc.),
– hot water cylinders,
– foul water and rainwater drainage,
– replacement windows, and
– fuel burning appliances of any type;"
".....This means that the works themselves must meet the relevant technical requirements in Schedule 1. There are 14 parts of Schedule 1, Approved Document J relates to Combustion appliances and fuel storage systems" (see 2 below)
Questions & Answers, Page 29, (u)
"If I want to install, replace or alter the position of any type of fuel burning appliance (including a gas boiler with a flue), will the Building Regulations apply?
All Gas appliances: Yes and the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations will also apply – but if you employ a CORGI (Council for Registered Gas Installers – approved under these regulations) - [now GasSafe .... ] registered installer with the relevant competencies to carry out the work, you will not need to involve a Building Control Service"
2. Building Regulation, Approved Document J http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2010.pdf
'Location of outlets from flues serving gas appliances' see Diagram 34, page 49/50 illustration H applies - flue siting distances from a boundary dependent on flue type (balanced flue, natural or fanned draught)
3, The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 http://www.hseni.gov.uk/l56_safety_in_the_installation_and_use_of_gas_systems_and_appliances.pdf
87 - Regulation 8(1) "....... Gas appliances/storage vessels should be installed so that safety cannot be affected by any future developments, eg building extensions, on adjoining property. For example, a flue should be located at a safe distance from any site boundary, so that in event of any development on a neighbouring site (which could extend up to the boundary), the flue will continue to operate properly and discharge of combustion products will not present a hazard to any person (see regulation 27 and Appendix 1)"
Regulation 27 (5) "No person shall install a flue other than in a safe position"
182 "A flue (including any terminal) should be installed in a position which ensures that it will operate effectively and that products of combustion will safely disperse and not present a hazard to any person, whether in the premises in which the associated appliance is installed (eg by being located a safe distance from vents and openable windows), or in adjoining/neighbouring premises. The location needs to take into account any possible developments in neighbouring property, eg building extensions. Any flue should therefore be sited so as to discharge at a safe distance from any boundary with adjoining premises (see regulation 8 and Appendix 1); reference should be made to requirements in Building Regulations and appropriate standards, as applicable"
Appendix 1, 3 (e) " the terminal is correctly sited; this should include adequate separation from any site boundary to ensure that the flue will continue to function safely and emissions will not present a hazard to any person either on the site concerned or in adjoining property, including in the event of any future building development on adjoining premises (which might extend close or up to the site boundary)"
4. Also see Gas Safe Technical Bulletins 231 & 16 http://www.a1gassafe.co.uk/pdf/TECHNICAL_BULLETIN_231.pdf
http://www.dougiejarvis.com/enginee...nations - pluming - plume management kits.pdf
In addition to above regulations, there are obvious risks associated with a siting of the flue within my boundary and close to my property :
Environment Protection Act 1990, Part III Statutory Nuisance and Clean Air http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/contents
"Potential Statutory Notice can be applied in the event of justified complaints of statutory nuisance. A statutory nuisance in terms of pollution can include emissions of smoke, fumes or gases, dust, steam and smell as well as noise. The nuisance must be coming from a premises and must materially affect the use or enjoyment of other surrounding premises. If a statutory nuisance is being or is likely to be caused Environmental Health will serve an Abatement Notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. It will require the person responsible, occupier or owner of the premises (as appropriate) to stop the nuisance. Failure to comply with an Abatement Notice is an offence and legal proceedings may result. If found guilty of an offence of this type then the maximum fine is £5,000 on domestic premises"
Also potential for Tresspass of Airspace as in Laiquat v Majid & Ors (June 2005) The case went to the court of appeal and it was won solely on the basis that there must be no trespass of airspace (Previously, nuisance, loss of enjoyment etc., were taken into consideration.)
Whilst I am sympathetic to your plight in having limited options regarding the location of your boiler, I am afraid, irrespective of my submitted planning permission and whether it is approved or not, I do not give permission for you to place the boiler flue on the boundary wall within my patio area, which, along with my flat, is delineated in red edging in my Land Registry title documentation, defining the extent of my leasehold land
As a consequence, I am afraid it will be necessary for you to consult with your contractor, who I am sure as Gas Safe registered will be able to help you to find an alternative solution to safely discharging fumes out from your boiler and away from my boundary.
However, should you still choose to go ahead with the work, then I am afraid I will have little option but to take necessary steps in contacting Gas Safe, Building Control at Wandsworth Council and the Health and Safety Executive to make an inspection of the work in order to have the situation rectified, which may result in your gas supply being disconnected and an enforcement put in place to have the flue relocated.
I hope that with further consultation with your contractor, you will be able to find a solution which will be mutually agreeable to everyone.
Regards, xxx
Dear xxx
It is a shame you are unable to attend the mediation meeting which I suggested to xxx would be a good idea to arrange, since I felt this would be the most amicable way to sit down and discuss the situation and look at alternative solutions to your problems with installing your boiler and flue.
In the absence of a meeting, I feel it important to make you aware of the building regs that do apply to your proposed work, including the siting of the flue. I therefore thought it a good idea, in good time, to appraise you of these regulations and risks associated with your current proposed siting of a boiler flue on a boundary wall within my patio boundary.
1, Building Regulations, Explanatory Booklet, http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/odpm/4000000011249.pdf
Page 12/13, 3.2 :
"If whatever work your project involves amounts to ‘Building Work’ then it must comply with the Building Regulations. This means that if you want to:
- put up a new building, or extend or alter an existing one (e.g. by converting a loft space into living space);
- or provide services and/or fittings in a building such as:
– washing and sanitary facilities (e.g. WCs, showers,washbasins, kitchen sinks, etc.),
– hot water cylinders,
– foul water and rainwater drainage,
– replacement windows, and
– fuel burning appliances of any type;"
".....This means that the works themselves must meet the relevant technical requirements in Schedule 1. There are 14 parts of Schedule 1, Approved Document J relates to Combustion appliances and fuel storage systems" (see 2 below)
Questions & Answers, Page 29, (u)
"If I want to install, replace or alter the position of any type of fuel burning appliance (including a gas boiler with a flue), will the Building Regulations apply?
All Gas appliances: Yes and the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations will also apply – but if you employ a CORGI (Council for Registered Gas Installers – approved under these regulations) - [now GasSafe .... ] registered installer with the relevant competencies to carry out the work, you will not need to involve a Building Control Service"
2. Building Regulation, Approved Document J http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2010.pdf
'Location of outlets from flues serving gas appliances' see Diagram 34, page 49/50 illustration H applies - flue siting distances from a boundary dependent on flue type (balanced flue, natural or fanned draught)
3, The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 http://www.hseni.gov.uk/l56_safety_in_the_installation_and_use_of_gas_systems_and_appliances.pdf
87 - Regulation 8(1) "....... Gas appliances/storage vessels should be installed so that safety cannot be affected by any future developments, eg building extensions, on adjoining property. For example, a flue should be located at a safe distance from any site boundary, so that in event of any development on a neighbouring site (which could extend up to the boundary), the flue will continue to operate properly and discharge of combustion products will not present a hazard to any person (see regulation 27 and Appendix 1)"
Regulation 27 (5) "No person shall install a flue other than in a safe position"
182 "A flue (including any terminal) should be installed in a position which ensures that it will operate effectively and that products of combustion will safely disperse and not present a hazard to any person, whether in the premises in which the associated appliance is installed (eg by being located a safe distance from vents and openable windows), or in adjoining/neighbouring premises. The location needs to take into account any possible developments in neighbouring property, eg building extensions. Any flue should therefore be sited so as to discharge at a safe distance from any boundary with adjoining premises (see regulation 8 and Appendix 1); reference should be made to requirements in Building Regulations and appropriate standards, as applicable"
Appendix 1, 3 (e) " the terminal is correctly sited; this should include adequate separation from any site boundary to ensure that the flue will continue to function safely and emissions will not present a hazard to any person either on the site concerned or in adjoining property, including in the event of any future building development on adjoining premises (which might extend close or up to the site boundary)"
4. Also see Gas Safe Technical Bulletins 231 & 16 http://www.a1gassafe.co.uk/pdf/TECHNICAL_BULLETIN_231.pdf
http://www.dougiejarvis.com/enginee...nations - pluming - plume management kits.pdf
In addition to above regulations, there are obvious risks associated with a siting of the flue within my boundary and close to my property :
Environment Protection Act 1990, Part III Statutory Nuisance and Clean Air http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/contents
"Potential Statutory Notice can be applied in the event of justified complaints of statutory nuisance. A statutory nuisance in terms of pollution can include emissions of smoke, fumes or gases, dust, steam and smell as well as noise. The nuisance must be coming from a premises and must materially affect the use or enjoyment of other surrounding premises. If a statutory nuisance is being or is likely to be caused Environmental Health will serve an Abatement Notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1990. It will require the person responsible, occupier or owner of the premises (as appropriate) to stop the nuisance. Failure to comply with an Abatement Notice is an offence and legal proceedings may result. If found guilty of an offence of this type then the maximum fine is £5,000 on domestic premises"
Also potential for Tresspass of Airspace as in Laiquat v Majid & Ors (June 2005) The case went to the court of appeal and it was won solely on the basis that there must be no trespass of airspace (Previously, nuisance, loss of enjoyment etc., were taken into consideration.)
Whilst I am sympathetic to your plight in having limited options regarding the location of your boiler, I am afraid, irrespective of my submitted planning permission and whether it is approved or not, I do not give permission for you to place the boiler flue on the boundary wall within my patio area, which, along with my flat, is delineated in red edging in my Land Registry title documentation, defining the extent of my leasehold land
As a consequence, I am afraid it will be necessary for you to consult with your contractor, who I am sure as Gas Safe registered will be able to help you to find an alternative solution to safely discharging fumes out from your boiler and away from my boundary.
However, should you still choose to go ahead with the work, then I am afraid I will have little option but to take necessary steps in contacting Gas Safe, Building Control at Wandsworth Council and the Health and Safety Executive to make an inspection of the work in order to have the situation rectified, which may result in your gas supply being disconnected and an enforcement put in place to have the flue relocated.
I hope that with further consultation with your contractor, you will be able to find a solution which will be mutually agreeable to everyone.
Regards, xxx
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