New cylinder/ boiler advice 5 bed house

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Hi all,

This is my first post on here, so Hi and Welcome. My name is Ben, and I live in NW London. I have used forums for years, but mainly for the various cars I have had.

I am not a particular expert as far a plumbing and CH goes, but am fairly clued up on mechanics, so with the small amount of knowledge I have, and with the help of my father who is a Quantity Surveyor, I will be able to sort this out and get some good advice from a few different angles.

I have had a look at the FAQ section, and I am sure that the 'use the search function' answer may come my way!

Problem:

The family home is a 5 bed detached 1930's mock Tudor job, not listed, with one bathroom, one shower room, and two WC's. There is a maximum of 5 people living in the house, and a minimum of 3.

There is ample space located to the garage side of the house, with a purpose built 5' x 5' boiler 'room'/ closet, which was installed to keep the boiler outside for safety.

The CH and hot water system thus comprises of a vented, unpressurised system with:

1. Potterton gas 150K BTU boiler on ground floor outside boiler room.

2. 150 litre cylinder on 1st floor.

3. Water tank on 2nd floor.

The problem is that the CH and hot water has not been working well for years, and had recently stopped working all together. There is also water overflow venting from the tank on the 2nd floor out of the overflow pipe, falling to the ground.

The boiler is c. 15-20 years old, but has been regularly serviced, and is in good shape.

The cylinder is too small, and too old, and needs replacing. Hot water is currently being supplied by an immersion on a timer.

The tank is probably fine.

Considerations:

I have been looking around, and have probably come to the conclusion that a pressurised unvented system is the norm, and the best - thus replacing the cylinder, and keeping the other bits for now.

The other possibility, although one that I would probably try to avoid, is a new generation combi, that is adequate for a house of this size, although I prefer a conventional system for a house.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I am open to suggestions and comments. Any solution would need to factor in a probable substantial extension, with the addition of an extra WC and bathroom. Thus taking the count to 2 bathrooms, 3 WC's and one shower room.

I want to do the job well and correctly, even if it costs more and takes longer to do, and I want the best cylinder available, as this system will need to last for at least 20 years, with the exception of possibly changing the boiler in another 5-10 years or so.

My philosophy has always been: do the research, buy and fit the best, and maintain well.

Many thanks in advance for any help given.
 
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Easy answer to that one; you can't beat a large unvented cylinder, 2 or 3 times the size you got now, IF you have sufficient pressure and flow.
You would need at least 25 mm mains, but bigger would be better. I'd say at least 1.5 bar pressure.
Cost a few bob though.
 
Ok thanks, looking at a Megaflo CL 250...

Do you know the difference between the HE CL250 and the CL250??

I like the way the Megaflo'a are designed and built.
 
one bathroom, one shower room, and two WC's. There is a maximum of 5 people living in the house, and a minimum of 3.

Large flowrate combis beat cylinders hands down. See thread: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=193040

OK two showers may be running at the same time. I would seriously consider a high flowrate quality combi. Look at the Broag Avantaplus 39C and get the outside weather sensor. Others with higher flowrates are: ATAG, W-Bosch floor mounted 550 Highflow (can go in the garage space), Ethos 54kW (this can have secondary circulation DHW loop to give instant DHW at the taps)

These will deliver the flows and the most cost effective route. The cylinders and tanks are removed saving space and potential problems.

An unvented cylinder needs an annual service which costs, so avoid.

Check the flowrate in litres/min and pressure of your cold mains pipe.
 
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An unvented cylinder needs an annual service which costs, so avoid.
Check the flowrate in litres/min and pressure of your cold mains pipe.

The OP could get this checked at the same time as the boiler and it takes less than 15 mins. Don't some large firms take that amount of time to test a boiler and sign off?

Otherwise the OP might consider a thermal store arrangement. Others here should know more about that sort of setup. The cylinders cost serious £££ and have moving parts that if fail mean you don't have any hot water out.

You may also struggle to find people who will want to work on them so you may have to DIY support it yourself. That might not be fun if you have a furious other half shouting "theres no hot water" at you!
 
The danger with reliance on a combi is if it breaks down you have no hot water. I always feel at least with a stored hot water facility you have the option of fitting an immersion to provide backup. Friends of mine were in this position recently, (albeit their boiler is an older Worcester and parts are more difficult to obtain), they were on the phone to me within half hour of it breaking down, begging for help. Apart from that you have already stated you would rather avoid them!

For unvented installation you will need an installer with a G3 qualification to enable him to work on unvented systems. I would look for recommendations for such an installer, and follow up references if you do not have anyone in mind you can trust.

I would advise against letting others opinions influence you, who seem to be a reincarnation of someone who was previously banned from this forum for giving dangerous and/or misleading advice.
 
hugh jaleak said:
I would advise against letting others opinions influence you, who seem to be a reincarnation of someone who was previously banned from this forum for giving dangerous and/or misleading advice.

ahh he has gone off thermal stores now he read a book on combis :LOL: ;)
 
...I would advise against letting others opinions influence you, who seem to be a reincarnation of someone who was previously banned from this forum for giving dangerous and/or misleading advice.
Come on now, be fair. Just because someone talks nonsense and waves the flag for broag? It's no proof that bigwaterdrivel has resurfaced.
It could be bamby asswipe.
 
To the OP.

The first thing you need to do is see tha mains water dynamic flow rate @ 1 Bar. If thats too difficut then measure the open pipe flow rate and the static pressure. We can then guess the dynamic for you.

I would advise a 300 li unvented IF the mains supply is adequate.

If not then it can be upgraded, cost varies about £500-£1300.

Your boiler is old, inefficient and over rated for your house if you have proper insulation and D/G windows. It should be changed quite soon.

Tony
 
The cylinders cost serious £££ and have moving parts that if fail mean you don't have any hot water out.

Good point. Many people have problem with unvented cylinders. Do a search on this forum and many come up. The simplest thermal store is basically idiot-proof with no complex controls.
 
The danger with reliance on a combi is if it breaks down you have no hot water.

A small instant electric heater can be fitted in-line on the combi DHW draw-off pipe. This will do a shower and some two taps as well. Only for backup until the combi is back up. When off the combi DHW just runs through it. I fitted on a leg to a shower, so people could wash. The kitchen had a dishwasher which was electric and any hot water at the kitchen tap could be via the kettle. Or have one shower and the kitchen tap running through the instant electric heater.

Or as backup, buy a small cheap B&Q combi, and use the same gas pipe. Have a throw-over switch that only had one combi on at a time. A cheap way of having full CH & DHW back up. The cheap combi gives some DHW, full heat and is cheap, and only used once in a blue moon, so quality issue are relevant. I have see some for sale at £300. Note: that is full CH & DHW backup. I did this once and the customer was well satisfied. They wanted full backup, and this was the cheapest way of doing it. A very cheap way overall when the whole new system cost is taken into account.

For unvented installation you will need an installer with a G3 qualification to enable him to work on unvented systems.

Which costs and then you need an annual service charge for the cylinder which has to be done by a G3 installer (beware of installers pushing these things as they gain all the way down the line), which costs every year. It will cost in over 10 years in unvented cylinder servicing charges, around £1,000. You may as well get a cheap backup combi or a proper thermal store/heat bank, which is service free, and save all the way. They both give full CH & DHW backup. The thermal store also is a buffer for the CH.
 
A small instant electric heater can be fitted in-line on the combi DHW draw-off pipe. This will do a shower and some two taps as well.
A shower AND 2 taps, from 1 little electric heater? You just lost all credibility.


Or as backup, buy a small cheap B&Q combi, and use the same gas pipe. I did this once and the customer was well satisfied.
You may well have done this at one point, but not legally.
You are no more a registered gas installer, than that I am a registered brain surgeon.
 
georgebumwell do you actually have any qualifications or experience in the plumbing or heating game?
 

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