partp- consumer unit change

[annemarie]

When I said allow I did indeed mean pay for. The electrician initially suggested his mate in Pontypridd but I have told Core and Ore taht I want my own electrician to do testing and they said that is fine of course. James says that they think the college have committed fraud as they lead Kevin up the garden path..... and that Kevin didn't really understand self-certification.
Kevin did say that Core and Ore had asked him for his details 3 months ago but he hadn't given them to him. So Core and Ore have subcontracted to an electrician who is unregistered- and says he did the course 26/5/07- and never bothered to check his registration. Core and Ore told be earlier that he does 8-10 jobs a month. This makes over 100 jobs since last May.
I've suggested to IKEA that given the scale of things they do a press recall. I'm sure the South Wales Echo would cover the story.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/send-a-story

NICEIC told me earlier to contact CAB so I don't think tehy are so interested. It was too late to get in contact with Cardiff building control again.
I think that I should be reporting it to consumer direct:
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/before_you_buy/thinking_about/home-improvements/
I hope that they would investigate and ensure that all other householders are notified.

 

[ebee]

I had assumed that having the kitchen installed in Oct 2007 that the wiring was done around that time so that could be a lot of customers non notified and potentially having problems.

Core and Ore certainly seem very slack to say the least from what you`ve said.

It certainly is disturbing

 

[ebee]

Here`s a conversation I just had online

Hi, thanks for contacting IKEA! My name is Emma, how can i help?.
19:36 hi
19:36 Hi,how can I help?
19:37 If a customer uses an installer supplied by you then do you see that they or any subsequent contractior complies with regulations in force such as Gas & Electric say Coirgi, Part P etc etc
19:42 yess eveything is registered all gas appliances are fitted by coirgi registered fitters as with electrics and plumbing
19:58 Is there anything else I can help you with?
19:59 I`m just telling them what you said
20:00 could you tell me of your contractors in the London area please
20:01 I'm afraid we don't have a list of them but I can give you the installation number and they will have the information.
20:02 thank you
20:02 0845 355 5575
20:02 thanks


http://89.234.1.69/webchat/index.htm

 

[nozspark]

I am really sorry that this has ended up this way for you, I can assure you that we are not all like this chap!!

If I did some sub contracting work for sopmeone then as a minimum they need to see an original of my liability insurance, I would hope that they would also want to ensure that I was a scheme member and was able to self certify..

How about a call to Watchdog or X-Ray or the like (the press in general), also a letter to IKEA customer services stating that the work that their sub contractors is doing does not comply with building regulations (and possibly the electrical regulations) and ask them what they are going to do about it.

bad press goes alot further than good press

Hope you get it sorted

 

[ebee]

I know it seems very unlikely but it is just possible that this electrician is actually a victim too.
Not my first instinct you understand but if he is he might want to assist you, if not then you might think he deserves a bad deal, either way your best bet might be to take it further both for you and all the others just to get to the bottom of it

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Phoned by the electrician this afternoon- very apologetic- he is not registered with NICEIC or anyone else.

James says that they think the college have committed fraud as they lead Kevin up the garden path..... and that Kevin didn't really understand self-certification.

It's not difficult to understand, and he had a legal and professional duty to make sure he did understand it.

Kevin did say that Core and Ore had asked him for his details 3 months ago but he hadn't given them to him.

James from Core and Ore has told me that Kevin is registered with NICEIC and given me a registration number.
Kevin in not listed on the NICEIC website.

Have just spoken to Rob in Core and Ore. Kevin is the electrician who does most of their work and they are very confident that he is infact registered even if NICEIC do not think that he is.

So Core and Ore have subcontracted to an electrician who is unregistered- and says he did the course 26/5/07- and never bothered to check his registration.

If he is right that he didn't give them his details (and whether he understood notification or not, he must have known that he hadn't joined NICEIC).

So it isn't a case of Core & Ore not checking - they made the whole thing up

 

[annemarie]

Well I have spoken to an electrician who he trusts. Basically he says that NO electrician can certify this work now. The only way forward is for Cardiff LABC to come and inspect it and sign it off. I have to discuss this with Core and Ore but obviously they should have to pay any costs. I am not sure and quite worried about what defects may have occurred.

I can on;y hope that most houses do not have the same extent of electrical work carried out by this cowboy as we did. Because it was a new kitchen we needed all new electrics and the new consumer unit.

I have read all I can about this and I can not see if Core and Ore have actually broken the law by not checking whether or not the electrician they sub-contracted to was actually competent to do the work.

According to this:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/genpub/en/1115315206489.html
it is our responsibility to ensure that the work carried out is done by someone competent. Surely paying a £250 admin fee to IKEA to get them to get their installer (Core and Ore) to contact us is as much as we could reasonably do.

I think I have to get on to trading standards tomorrow.

Thanks everyone...

.... a rather dejected Anne Marie

 

[annemarie]

I know it seems very unlikely but it is just possible that this electrician is actually a victim too.
Not my first instinct you understand but if he is he might want to assist you, if not then you might think he deserves a bad deal, either way your best bet might be to take it further both for you and all the others just to get to the bottom of it

Soory, I'm not sure I understand. How might the electrician be a victim? Could be really have been that stupid as not to know that he should be registered as a 'competent person'?

How can he assist me in this? What can he do to rectify this? In any case my contract is with Core and Ore not with him.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am not sure and quite worried about what defects may have occurred.

Just because the electrician wasn't registered that doesn't mean he was incompetent.

I have read all I can about this and I can not see if Core and Ore have actually broken the law by not checking whether or not the electrician they sub-contracted to was actually competent to do the work.

Have you looked at The Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2007?

I think I have to get on to trading standards tomorrow.

You might want to speak to a solicitor too. If you are worried and distressed, and unable to sleep properly etc then you might be able to seek compensation from C&O....

 

[annemarie]

Since he didn't label the circuits on the new CU, and has not provided any evidence that the existing circuits were tested, I think I am right to be concerned.

I dislike the compensation culture and hope I won't have any sleepless nights (though I am annoyed that we still can't get our new shower installed!) but I do want to ensure that other people who are affected by this are informed.

I may well contact a solicitor and will try to understand that legislation you kindly pointed me towards.

Thanks

 

[ebee]

He was sending all documentation to the college he did the '16th' exams with

No I don`t really think this but it is just (minutely) possible he misunderstood or was conned himself.
Very very unlikely but by giving him the benefit you are allowing him a way out if not guilty but giving him enough rope if he is.

Read what Ban says `cos he is (usually) right

 

[Cremeegg]

I'm sorry but sadly not surprised at this.

As BAS says under CDM you have to check competence - something C&O clearly haven't done. Under Health & Safety at Work Act as well C&O must ensure they by their actions dont endanger anyone. Not checking subbies can be fatal!

I'd go for C&O, IKEA, Trading Standards & Health & Safety Executive.

Bear in mind most LABC depts dont know much about electrics - they tend to sub out electrical testing to a local contractors.

I wish you luck.

Just remember there are many good electricians out there - some even give their advice free on here.

 

[annemarie]

He was sending all documentation to the college he did the '16th' exams with

No I don`t really think this but it is just (minutely) possible he misunderstood or was conned himself.
Very very unlikely but by giving him the benefit you are allowing him a way out if not guilty but giving him enough rope if he is.

Read what Ban says `cos he is (usually) right

I know what you are saying he may indeed have misunderstood or taken a course with a rogue college. But who is now responsible? Is it him or Core and Ore who didn't check he was competent? Who should now be informing building control? Me? C and O? The incompetent electrician?

 

[annemarie]

I'm sorry but sadly not surprised at this.

As BAS says under CDM you have to check competence - something C&O clearly haven't done. Under Health & Safety at Work Act as well C&O must ensure they by their actions dont endanger anyone. Not checking subbies can be fatal!

I'd go for C&O, IKEA, Trading Standards & Health & Safety Executive.

Bear in mind most LABC depts dont know much about electrics - they tend to sub out electrical testing to a local contractors.

I wish you luck.

Just remember there are many good electricians out there - some even give their advice free on here.

Uhmmm... but you do agree that Building control have to be notified as this is the only way we will now get an installation certificate even though they may not be that good?

I've had a quick look at HSE and it doesn't seem to apply: The words ‘client’ and ‘contractor’ are used throughout this
leaflet. For the purposes of this leaflet, client means any
employer in the public or private sector who uses
contractors. Contractor means anyone brought in by a client
to work at the client’s premises who is not an employee of
the client. However, the guidance in this leaflet does not
apply to agency or mobile workers (HSE will issue separate
guidance about these workers later). Nor does it apply to
deliveries to the client’s premises or work activities covered
by the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations
1994 (CDM). Where CDM applies, clients, contractors and
others have specific legal responsibilities.

I certain;y know that not all electricians are bad. If I hadn't used IKEA's installers then I would certainly have had a good one.

 

[ebee]

You are the agrieved, you`ve done nowt wrong, someone (or someones ) are in error to say the least.

If I were you I`d start the ball rolling so to speak.

At "the end of the day" you might have had an install that is technically (and safely) OK but not notified.
Regularisation to correct this might cost a little but someone might (or might be told to) compensate you for this due to contractural obligations.
Others might be similarly in "the same boat".
The other alternative is you might have opened up a "real can of worms" that needs investigating.
I suggest, worst case allow £ 150 total which you could probably get back


All the best,
Ebee