PIR Monday this is the test schedule from the Rewire 2009

[martinxxxxxx]

Comments?

Untitled

• martinxxxxxx
• 2 Jan 2015
• 1

 

[sparkwright]

It's the wrong way up.

 

[RF Lighting]

It was filled out by some muppet who didn't have the first clue what they were doing.

Nothing new there then.

 

[ericmark]

I would agree Ze and PFC readings are missing. Zs reading seems near the same for every circuit yet the R1 + R2 vary as one would expect however if those readings are correct the Kitchen and upstairs rings and down sockets are well out of speck.

At 300mA the RCD is also out by a factor of 10.

This is interesting as I have said many times filling in these documents can come back to haunt one where errors are made.

In the "Ring" hole I would have put simply yes or no but this person has entered a reading love to know what the reading was as in one the R1+R2 match the ring and in others they don't.

As to what to do about it well first need date is it before Part P or after? (2004) If after Part P then either the scheme provider or the LABC should have picked up on the readings.

I am told scheme members don't actually send the Schedule of test results to the scheme provider so not sure what would happen if the electrician is a scheme member but the LABC do require the Schedule of test results to be submitted before issuing a completion certificate so should have picked up on this.

I did however open the On-Site Guide to BS 7671:2001 and looked at the sample either R1+R2 or R2 should have a reading but sample has ticks.

But Earth Loop Impedance - R1 + R2 should equal Ze at origin so with circuit 6 Ze = -0.71 this is clearly impossible can't get a minus Ze figure so since Zs is the same for all circuits one wonders if this is Ze? If it is it's far too high.

Minimum size of earth conductor today is 1mm² the form states 0.75mm² my books only go back to 2001 when it was also 1mm² so one tends to think this document is over 14 years old. Since every 10 years or change of occupier you should have a PIR or EICR done after 10 years (5 years in Scottish rented) then really one would think you have left it too late.

But should the new EICR show the volt drop or ELI is too great then I suppose you could still demand it is corrected FOC.

 

[ericmark]

Ups just seen date on heading this guy is up creak without a paddle.

 

[ericmark]

Just seen who you are martinxxxxxx so what are you going to do? Thought is was a DIY guy once I realised who then this raises other questions.

Clearly you can test so was it actually within speck and just the paperwork rubbish or was the work also rubbish?

 

[flyingsparks]

"...

As to what to do about it well first need date is it before Part P or after? (2004) If after Part P then either the scheme provider or the LABC should have picked up on the readings.

I am told scheme members don't actually send the Schedule of test results to the scheme provider so not sure what would happen if the electrician is a scheme member but the LABC do require the Schedule of test results to be submitted before issuing a completion certificate so should have picked up on

Not sure what you mean here,I have never submitted test results to the scheme provider or labc.

 

[ericmark]

"...

As to what to do about it well first need date is it before Part P or after? (2004) If after Part P then either the scheme provider or the LABC should have picked up on the readings.

I am told scheme members don't actually send the Schedule of test results to the scheme provider so not sure what would happen if the electrician is a scheme member but the LABC do require the Schedule of test results to be submitted before issuing a completion certificate so should have picked up on

Not sure what you mean here,I have never submitted test results to the scheme provider or labc.

I did have to submit results to the LABC and it would seem this is the correct method. However I have been told results are not submitted to scheme provider instead they have spot inspections and assume if the inspection is OK all other jobs are also OK.

I have questioned many times the LABC and how long before they are brought to task like social services have been? They (The LABC) are responsible to ensure the work is up to scratch.

The LABC inspector is no different to anyone else and when he knows the work is being done by some one he has in the past found their work to be A1 he is inclined to rubber stamp the paperwork without checking it. However he is clearly taking a risk and should he pass something sub-standard then he is in trouble.

Where he can say he missed the problem as it was not visible at time of inspection or sample tests showed the work to be satisfactory then he can likely wriggle out of his responsibility. However with paper work showing so well that the installer had no idea then he is up the creak he should have picked up on this. Some one will have paid £100 plus to council for the completion certificate clearly the council have a duty to inspect both the work and the paperwork when paid so much.

With the scheme membership one would hope the scheme inspector would also inspect a sample of paperwork even if not that one and quickly realise the guy is getting it all wrong.

However my son worked for a large firm inspecting and testing and realised he was filling in a new form wrong where boxes had been moved on the form so entering wrong figures. He did forms correct for first 4 months then 2 months with error and month correct so 7 months working for firm and no one every queried the forms. Neither did at any time he meet the scheme providers inspector. Unlike Gas it is the firm would are scheme members not the electricians working for the firm so my son for 7 months did 1000's of installation certificates and not once did he see a scheme inspector.

This was one of the reasons for England reducing the regulations as clearly the scheme providers are not doing their job and too much is down to trust.

But of course we as yet don't know if a completion or compliance certificate has been issued? I have said before it is down to the home owner to ensure either he uses a scheme member or the LABC is informed and an electrician who issues an installation certificate to the home owner can claim he thought the owner had informed the LABC. Since the LABC do not issue a permit to work the electrician just has to take the home owners word for it. Where other work is being done then to include the electrics in the notification is not that expensive. This is what I did when converting a larder and loo into a wet room. Had I not been doing the electrics I could have very well employed some other electrician and he may have never met the building inspector. In fact I did employ a builder to install lintels and he never met the inspector. Neither did the builder who installed the drains.

Personally I think the LABC should issue permits to work then any electrician doing work without a permit could not claim he thought the owner had informed the council. But as far as I am aware there is still no permit system.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I am pretty sure that the LABC completion certificate has been issued as the property was completely gutted and rebuilt including using the loft and adding a huge extension at the the time of the rewire. I know this as it is on my doorstep and I also know the builder (subsequently) who did the build. This would have been notified direct with the LABC as it would have come under the notification of the other building works. Which means that the Building Inspector would have seen this document himself and not noticed that it is a bit unteanable. The Ze is quoted as 1.21Ω something I would have been worried enough to call the DNO for as in the this area/street the usual reading is about 0.21Ω. NO RCD on the first 3 circuits is my main concern as there should have been since it was wired after the 17th, so I will have to code this and suggest that we add 3 RCBOs if it is a board that this can accomodate them don't you think?
He has a NICIEC number on the paperwork which I will check out, but his address does not seem to bring up an electrician on a google search.
As for the mearsurements he made, I don't think he did any at all, but when I do mine I will post them here. Also he has EEBADS as the form of protection and is using a 16th ed for a year after the 17th became mandatory!

 

[Adam_151]

For what reason is the EICR being requested?

You'd be suprised just how many guys there are who think that 1mm 6242Y has a 0.75mm cpc. A lot think 10mm has 6mm cpc and a few even think that 6mm has a 4mm cpc

I'd not read too much into the strange test results, it looks like hes using kewtech gear so wobbly readings are to be expected

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Looks like the person filling this form out either didn't have a clue or did not test correctly or both.
I think possibly made up results, no detailed trip times for RCD x1 or x5. Also mention of EEBADS would suggest testing under 16th edition methods and regs.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

It is for an HMO letting.

Yep I see this a lot too on wire sizes

But the fact is he has not made any measurements in my opinion, but the instrument he claims to have used is a KTS1620 which is an early Fluke/Robin tester.

Even so all of the circuits have the Zs exacly the same as the Ze.

As I say the main problem is the lack of RCD on the first 3 circuits and how to break the news to the owner that there should be...

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Is it possible that the smokes and bathroom circuits are on RCBOs as there is a trip time documented. Have you seen the install at all?

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Looks like the person filling this form out either didn't have a clue or did not test correctly or both.
I think possibly made up results, no detailed trip times for RCD x1 or x5. Also mention of EEBADS would suggest testing under 16th edition methods and regs.

Yes exactly what I thoght, the form looks like the 16th edition model with no place for 5X or 1X times

Dated 23/09/09 a full year after the 17th mandatory!

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Is it possible that the smokes and bathroom circuits are on RCBOs as there is a trip time documented. Have you seen the install at all?

Not yet, will do on Monday.

I will post a photo of the board and my schedule (bound to have errors too , but not this bad)