Quick check on part P compliance

[ban-all-sheds]

Nope.

Apart from things being outside the 17th Zones still being within a 16th Zone and therefore still notifiable....

 

[GaryMo]

There's still something bugging me about this....

One of the reasons notification under Part P was brought in was due to the likes of kitchen fitters, plumbers and bathroom fitters carrying out electrical work to a poor standard.
A kitchen fitter can install ceiling lighting in a 3 meter high kitchen ceiling but would need to notify under Part P yet a bathroom fitter could do the same in a bathroom but wouldn't need to notify. It doesn't make sense to me

 

[VanSolo]

I have been watching this discussion with interest and would like to add a bit. If notifiable work in a room containing a bath or shower covers the zones as defined in the 16th edition, that would mean extending 3 metres from the edge of the bath or shower. Would this not cover most domestic bathrooms anyway? Seems like the building regs are in need of an update regarding the 17th edition.
Still can't get my head round a kitchen being a special location
If it is a kitchen/dining room, how far does the special location extend from the food prep area?

 

[Spark123]

A kitchen is not a special location - it is dealt with under part P as a kitchen . There are certain works you can do in a kitchen without notification (i.e. installing an alarm PIR sensor or a telephone point) which you cannot do in a special location.
A lot of bathrooms will not extend over 3m from the bathtub or shower basin however a lot will be over 2.25m high outside 0.6m away from the bathtub or shower basin. Likewise there will be a lot of bathrooms with panels over the side of the bath to inhibit access.

 

[VanSolo]

Thanks for that Spark123. I understand the bathroom stuff. I need to reword my other point. Why would a kitchen be a special case as opposed to the rest of the house and where does the kitchen end in a kitchen/dining room regarding notification.

 

[Spark123]

I'd expect it to end where it ceases to be a food preparation area with a sink.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There is no explicit definition - I believe the guideline on where the kitchen stops is 3m from the sink.

 

[VanSolo]

Thanks Spark123 and Ban-All-Sheds. Clear as mud eh?
It is only since I have had to do my 17th edition course that I have looked at any electrical forums to get an idea of how sparks in general thought about the changes. Having worked for years as a commercial electrician I did not realise what a mine field the domestic installers have to cross in relation to building regulations and the expense of competent person schemes. Seems to me that all that has happened is a greater burden on the honest domestic installer with no significant increase in safety. This is just my view on this but it looks like the building regs could do with an update and better clarification in some important areas.
Still don't get the kitchen thing as most of the shoddy wiring I have seen is on lighting, wall lights etc. This seems to not be notifiable unless adding a new circuit or being in a food prep area or within the bathroom zones 1,2,3 of the 16th edition. Beats me

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Seems to me that all that has happened is a greater burden on the honest domestic installer with no significant increase in safety.

Ah, but look at how much the membership of NICEIC etc has grown....

 

[FingRinal]

As far as I am aware, BS7671:2001 does not specify any zones for a bath or shower. It specifies zones for 'locations' containing a bath or shower. A such, the definition as laid down in the Building Regulations 2000 could be said to be confused at best and gibberish at worse. Once an argument starts as to exactly what this definition means, a binding definition can only be determined by a Court of Law.

It's also worth noting that Building Regulations and Planning are not the same thing. Complying with Building Regulations is not a guarantee that Planning Permission will be granted.

Rather than worry about the legalities of statutory documents (for which only a Court of Law can provide a binding interpretation) one should concern themselves with the plethora of guidance, standards and other good practice guides (e.g.OSG) . As such, Approved Documents, British Standards, IEE publications etc. will serve the interests of all but the most persistent pedants.

 

[Veglen]

where does the kitchen end in a kitchen/dining room regarding notification.

I seem to remember that in the Electricians Guide to The Building Regulations 16th Edition, it gave a definition of an area considered to be the area of a kitchen. It may also be somewhere in the 17th Edition too. I have neither to hand at the moment so I am unable to quote.

Maybe someone here would have a copy to hand and be good enough to quote the definition of a kitchen area for further comment?

If not I will try to have a look later

V

 

[VanSolo]

Never mind that now V.
I can see a storm coming and I'm getting me coat!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Just thought I'd take a quick peek at the title of this thread....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As far as I am aware, BS7671:2001 does not specify any zones for a bath or shower. It specifies zones for 'locations' containing a bath or shower.

But the Zones are defined in terms of horizontal & vertical distances from the edges of the bath, shower tray etc, aren't they?

A such, the definition as laid down in the Building Regulations 2000 could be said to be confused at best and gibberish at worse.

Seems quite straightforward to me - it's unambiguous whether something is in Zone 0, 1, 2, 3 or not. If it's in one of the Zones it's notifiable, if it's not then it's not.

 

[FingRinal]

BS7671:2001 (and 2008) is quite clear. The zones do not apply to a 'bath' or a 'shower'. The zones are defined as applying to 'locations containing a bath or shower'.

I'm not sure how anyone can confuse this wording. It seems that the author of this part of the Building Regs got their knickers in a twist and it wouldn't be the first time that a Court of Law has had to be called upon to clarify woolly wording found in statutory documents.

The wording in the Building Regulations makes no sense with respect to BS7671:2001 or 2008. As such, what it may or may not mean is down to opinion. Hardly b/w and to try and second guess exactly how a Court of Law would interpret the wording is..er..second guessing.

Anyone who assumes to know the law better than a Court of Law is a bigger ass than the Law.