Radiator Sludge

[endecotp]

BTW: which thermal camera do you have?

 

[RainTown]

Basic things, like checking whether the flow and returns of the system have been mixed up,

Sorry, practically, how to know? 95% of the piping is under tbe floor. Is that something the customer should be checking after a new boiler was installed and new TRVs fitted to all radiators? Really?

Remember around 8 different plumbers/ gas/installers have looked at it over last 3 years or so, as I got various quotes for a new boilerTRVs supply and installation, and 3 in last 2 months in this very issue, and all looking at same system with same hardware/connectivity. None mentioned the flow/return might be wrong way round.

The Hive TRVs are apparently bidirectional btw.

As I said in earlier post, tbe CH system was installed for my elderly parents via some government scheme. Has the TRVs been at ankle level, they would have been harder for them to use. TRVs attached on the top of radiators seems pretty common in my limited personal experience, in/around Scotland mostly.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Sorry, practically, how to know? 95% of the piping is under tbe floor. Is that something the customer should be checking after a new boiler was installed and new TRVs fitted to all radiators? Really?

It shouldn't be necessary, but you are, where you are, and need to find a solution.

Remember around 8 different plumbers/ gas/installers have looked at it over last 3 years or so, as I got various quotes for a new boilerTRVs supply and installation, and 3 in last 2 months in this very issue, and all looking at same system with same hardware/connectivity. None mentioned the flow/return might be wrong way round.

One, who knows what he's about, should be enough, but these are commercial businesses, out to make a profit, from you the customer. The better informed the customer, the better able they are able to know what needs doing.

 

[RainTown]

BTW: which thermal camera do you have?

It’s a seek thermal attachment to my old iPhone.

Seek Thermal Compact XR Extended Range Thermal Imaging Camera with Lightning Connector and Protective Waterproof Case for Apple iOS Devices - Black

Cost me 180 quid from Amazon in 2017. I lost track of it, and only found it in a box of cables a few weeks ago. My specific model can’t take sequences of photos with same temperature range, their support team just confirmed that, which is a bit annoying.

“This control is only available with the SeekThermal Compact Pro or Compact Pro XR cameras. Unfortunately, it is not supported on the standard Compact models, even when using the latest version of the Seek Thermalapp on an iPhone.”

 

[RainTown]

They quickly remove the old boiler and dump it in the garden. Now they’ve got a load of pipes sticking out of the floor and a boiler with some connections. They can probably identify the gas pipe, I hope. The others - well, some are 15mm and some are 22mm. They connect the 22mm pipes to the CH flow and return, and turn it on. Great, the radiators don’t fill with gas! And they get warm (kinda). Job done, go to pub!

I hoped a Gas Safe registered installer, also on the approved list from Baxi , would be better.

They actually were very tidy, and took old boiler away. They didn’t go to the pub, but they had a train to catch. The 3:15 from Glasgow Central. Left my place 2:35 or so.

 

[denso13]

TRVs attached on the top of radiators seems pretty common in my limited personal experience, in/around Scotland mostly.

They are, it isn't an issue.

 

[endecotp]

Sorry, practically, how to know? [whether flow and return have been swapped]

Feel the pipes at the radiator. The one that get warm first is the flow.

Of course you shouldn’t need to do this, but…….

 

[RainTown]

Feel the pipes at the radiator The one that get warm first is the flow.

Of course you shouldn’t need to do this, but…….

This is what I assumed. And that “gets hot first” connection is consistently at the lockshield. And without being able to say 100%, I think it was always so. Pre Baxi too.

 

[endecotp]

This is what I assumed. And that “gets hot first” connection is consistently at the lockshield. And without being able to say 100%, I think it was always so. Pre Baxi too.

Well, whatever the history, it is certainly wrong. Fix it by adjusting the pipework wherever is most convenient, likely at or near the boiler.

Edited to add: “consistently at the lockshield” isn’t the issue, but “consistently at the bottom of the radiator” is what matters. Just for clarity.

 

[RainTown]

Well, whatever the history, it is certainly wrong. Fix it by adjusting the pipework wherever is most convenient, likely at or near the boiler.

Edited to add: “consistently at the lockshield” isn’t the issue, but “consistently at the bottom of the radiator” is what matters. Just for clarity.

Thank you. Yes in all cases lockshiekd is at the bottom. And in most (5/6) cases the TRV is at the top.and there is differing levels of OK-ness , or otherwise, across those 5. The one with both at bottom works best.

I will double check all of this later.

Of course can’t know with certainty situation years ago. A d I don’t want solve the 2015 problem, I want to solve the 2026 problem.

Am I understanding correctly this is “wrong”, meaning certainly sub-optimal ? I was watching the Baxi install guy rerouting the pipes, and he certainly did it one at a time, actually quite methodically , trying to minimise crossing as the sequence on the 2 boilers was different and he was trying to keep piping tight to the wall. I have before and after pictures, but I don’t think the connections are labelled. I’ll try to find the model number of old boiler. It’s an interesting mystery.

I followed advice here and spoke to local plumbers merchant. He gave me a number. I called, told the guy the status. Sent him same fotos I shared here. Guy said the flow/return thing “doesn’t matter, cos the Hive TRVs are bidirectional”. He also suggested just change all the radiators, about same price and easier. “Totally choked” was his reaction to one of the thermal pictures. So flow/return still would likely be wrong way around, I’d have new radiators that are almost certainly not going to be sledged up the day he installs them. Or should I insist he swaps flow/return?

 

[denso13]

Guy said the flow/return thing “doesn’t matter, cos the Hive TRVs are bidirectional”

Or should I insist he swaps flow/return?

I would, no point leaving it wrong.

 

[endecotp]

I followed advice here and spoke to local plumbers merchant. He gave me a number. I called, told the guy the status. Sent him same fotos I shared here. Guy said the flow/return thing “doesn’t matter, cos the Hive TRVs are bidirectional”. He also suggested just change all the radiators, about same price and easier. “Totally choked” was his reaction to one of the thermal pictures. So flow/return still would likely be wrong way around, I’d have new radiators that are almost certainly not going to be sledged up the day he installs them. Or should I insist he swaps flow/return?

“Just change all the radiators” about the same price as swapping the flow and return pipes at the boiler?????

This is a DIY forum. My advice would be, keep your interaction with “professionals” to the legal minimum and do it yourself. Then you don’t have to deal with this sort of bullshit, you save money, and you get the result you want (eventually).

Of course that’s not the right answer for everyone, some people literally don’t own a screwdriver. But those people don’t come to DIYnot, do they?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

“Just change all the radiators” about the same price as swapping the flow and return pipes at the boiler?????

Nonsense!

Your new radiators will not be blocked, if they are cold, then for some reason - they are suffering a lack of flow. Lack of flow as in-pump not being effective, valve closed, or stuck closed, pipework blocked, or other radiators 'stealing' most of the water flow.

 

[endecotp]

Anyway…. I’ve just looked at your first post again and I see that the previous boiler was a Vokera. I do have a recollection of a post here about a new Vokera model where someone commented that “finally Vokera have got flow and return the same way around as all the other manufacturers”. I’ll see if I can find it… here you go (isn’t it odd that I remember this, but not… all the other stuff?)

Post in thread 'New Boiler Advice'

3 Sep 2020

I work for Vokera so that's out the way. What's the boiler it's replacing? The Vision C has our traditional pipe arrangement return, flow, gas, hot, cold. The new Vision Plus has the more UK orientated arrangement of flow, hot, gas, cold main, return. That makes for an easier, neater install for the fitter.

Personally I'd go for the Unica i 28 or 32 or evolve 24C, 28C if it's R,F,G,H,C and the Vision Plus 35C if it's FHGCR. Ease of servicing but of course more money.

There's a webinar on the new Vision Plus on Tuesday next at 7pm which you can tune into if you're interested. I'll find...

• vulcancontinental

• 
• 

 

[RainTown]

Just change all the radiators” about the same price as swapping the flow and return pipes at the boiler????

No, in fairness he meant roughly same price as power flush. He’d already dismissed the importance of flow/return possibly being wrong way around.

Unfortunately I just cannot do it myself. I’m partially sighted. I can just about see well enough , in good light, to get a spanner around the lock shield and see its orientation as I turn it.